The Qur’an Strikes Back

Ta-Ha

The BBC this week reported that what are believed to be amongst the earliest ever fragments of the Qur’an have been found at Birmingham University. The fragments have been carbon dated with a 95% probability to the period 568 to 645 CE ie. to a period that very closely corresponds to the time (610 – 632 CE) when the traditional Muslim narrative maintains that the Prophet Muhammad received the revelation of the Qur’an. This means, as Professor David Thomas of Birmingham University has observed:

“The person who actually wrote it could well have known the Prophet Muhammad. He would have seen him probably, he would maybe have heard him preach. He may have known him personally – and that really is quite a thought to conjure with.”

So, for Muslims, this finding will be received with immense joy as it confirms their belief in the historicity of the Qur’an and the manner of its compilation and preservation. But, what does this finding mean for Western scholarship about the Qur’an?

Back in the late 1970’s, Patricia Crone and Michael Cook (who both went on to occupy prestigious roles at Princeton University) published a book called Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World, which called for a radical revision of the traditional Muslim narrative and insisted that the Qur’an took shape in the 8th century to fulfil a need of the growing Arab empire. The authors claimed at the time that “…There is no hard evidence for the existence of the Koran in any form before the last decade of the seventh century…”

Well, as it happens, Crone (who passed away earlier this month) later changed her mind about this as evidence began to accrue that supported the Muslim narrative, but the revisionists’ influence continues to be felt.

Three years ago, the British writer and historian, Tom Holland, published In The Shadow of the Sword which I reviewed here on this blog at the time. Holland argued that much of the Muslim narrative about the history of Islam was unreliable and that Islam as we now know it was largely shaped by the Arab Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan. Holland added that the true location of the Prophet’s initial preaching was not the Makka that we know today, but much further north on the border with Palestine.

Accompanying the publication of his book, Tom Holland also presented a Channel Four documentary called “Islam the Untold Story” in which he outlined his case. But let’s return to his book for the moment. Holland’s book started off by posing some big questions.

“…how can we know for sure that the Qur’an dates from the time of Muhammad? How can we know who compiled it, from what sources, for what motives? Can we even be sure that its origins lay in Arabia? In short, do we really know anything at all about the birth of Islam?” (p43)

“Does the Qur’an really date from the Prophet’s lifetime? Where, if not in Mecca, might he have lived? Why are the references to him in the early Caliphate so sparse, so enigmatic, and so late?” (p55)

As I said at the time, you could have been forgiven for thinking that Holland had uncovered something shocking about the Qur’an. It was only over 300 pages into his book that you found out Holland’s actual conclusion about the Qur’an:

“The text of the Qur’an itself does seem to derive authentically from the Prophet’s lifetime…it is true, the Qur’an records a very specific moment in history: a moment that internal evidence, as well as tradition, identifies with the early decades of the seventh Christian century.” (p310-315)

So, after that intriguing build up, we were told that the Muslim narrative about the history of the Qur’an was accurate.

Interestingly, Tom Holland did not mention this rather vital fact in his C4 documentary. Why not? This was surely important and relevant in a documentary seeking to look at the historical foundations of Islam? In a Twitter exchange I had with Tom earlier this week, he said it was not necessary to explicitly mention that modern evidence supports the traditional Muslim narrative about the historicity of the Qur’an because his documentary simply assumed the Muslim dating of the Qur’an was correct.

Personally, I can’t help but feel that the more likely reason Holland did not mention this was because it would have severely undermined his entire thesis for the C4 documentary.

Still, let us let bygones be bygones. Looking forward, British Muslims have cause to be grateful that these latest Qur’an fragments have been found in the UK. They will be placed on public display initially at the Barber Institute in Birmingham in just over two months time. I can’t wait to go and see them.

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77 Responses to The Qur’an Strikes Back

  1. Reaz Ahmed says:

    Tell this guy, Tom Holland, go to Birmingham and check the fragments discovered with any modern copy. I think he himself is the answer to his own conundrum, which he drew a conclusion on in his book. I feel pity for this kind of pundit who twists and then turn and then again twist. They’re whirling about a maze. They’re in a real confusion.

  2. Ash says:

    To describe this Tom Holland character as a Historian would be clear dis-service to those academics who have clearly dedicated their lives to this filed.

    Tom Holland is a charlatan who has no idea of history and certainly has no qualifications to speak on history whatsoever. He decided to attach the label of ‘Historian, to himself and make some money from the Billion dollar Islamaphobia industry, by pursuing the propaganda from a different angle. And it turned out to be a massive fail, if you are going to project yourself as an expert in any field at least learn something about the topic you are speaking of.

    Interesting how all these ignorant self made experts keep cropping up to vilify Muslims, and not forgetting all these government funded propagandists who appeared everywhere as experts on the middle east, and Weapons of Mass destruction prior to the 2003 invasion.

    As for Holland I mean the guy has never even seen a copy of the Quran let alone read one. Nor read any of the volumes of books written by Muslim historians, and Scholars on Islamic History.
    He is like someone who labels himself as a master Baker whilst never having baked a cake in his life. One wonders as to where the numpties in Government finds such incompetent individuals to work as a propagandist. Even more strange was that channel 4 thought they could get away with
    putting a total ignoramous on T.V. and that no one would notice just how ignorant, he was.

  3. LibertyPhile says:

    “The text of the Qur’an itself does seem to derive authentically from the Prophet’s lifetime…it is true, the Qur’an records a very specific moment in history: a moment that internal evidence, as well as tradition, identifies with the early decades of the seventh Christian century.”

    Yes, indeed. For example, it could contain authentic stories, myths, and beliefs, circulating at that time, which Mohammad decided to include in his revelations. Suras 18 to 20 which I believe these pages hold parts of are full of stories that occur in other sources.

    It will be fascinating to get the full analysis of that fragment. I’ve seen comments that it might be a palimpsest, an old writing surface that has been reused.

    And the Guardian article says: “The verses are incomplete, and believed to have been an aide memoire for an imam who already knew the Qur’an by heart, but the text is very close to the accepted authorised version.” “Close to” not exactly the same.

    But whatever the truth of the sources and creation of the Qur’an the fact remains it is the most depressing story. It is immensely sad that otherwise intelligent, decent, people, can believe it.

    It’s a while since I read it, but what is it, 5%, or 10%, or 20%, or more, that is devoted to saying unbelievers (and God made them that way!) will burn in hell for ever, no matter how good they are, just because they don’t believe?

    And “If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!” 18:29 Pickthall translation.

    It’s no better than the beliefs of aborigines who worship rocks.

  4. Ash says:

    Our dear old Chum LibertyPhile is feeling depressed by this story.

    No doubt because the Islamaphobic propaganda being dished out by the likes of him, and Tom Holland keeps ending in spectacular failure and is having the opposite effect to the one they intended.

    Whats more people of their own ilk and from their own ranks, are reading the Quran and converting to Islam. In the Netherlands Arnoud Van Doorn, a senior member of Geert Wilders party a selfmade expert on Islam, dedicated years of his life in a relentless hate campaign demonising and villifying Islam and the muslims, he was even behind the notorious Anti-Islam film Fitna…….Somewhere along the line, it finally clicked in his head that perhaps he should actually find out what Islam actually teaches and read the Quran and find out what it actually states…….And he ended up converting to Islam. (The following is a video lecture by the man himself on his journey to Islam https://youtu.be/VOtNkDLnumE )

    In Switzerland the Politician Daniel Streich another self-made expert on the ‘Barbarity’ of Islam led a relentless campaign against muslims and he finally decided to read the Quran and ends up converting. In France Maxence Buttey a member of the National front another expert on the ‘Barbarity’ of Islam read the Quran and ends up converting and we are seeing a similar pattern across Europe Islamaphobes converting to Islam.

    The common denominator between these individuals is that they had allowed the bigotry and hatred of others to influence their own opinions, they regularly appeared in public and the media
    giving an illusion of expertise by misquoting and misrepresenting text that they had never actually read or researched themselves. It is only after they decided to do their own research they realised how misguided they had been, they had allowed the propaganda of the ignorant bigots of this world to influence their opinion.

    And if we actually look into these Islamaphobes what we find more often then not is these guys have never actually read anything on Islam whatsoever, it would not be too much to expect that these individuals should at the very least to read ‘The Idiots guide To Islam’ or ‘The Idiots Guide to the Quran’. But no sir! they have already decided
    that they hate Islam and muslims based on other peoples propaganda and have decided they are going to repeat the propaganda that they read, which is written by individuals who have not read anything on Islam either.

    So in conclusion for those of you who hate Islam and the Muslims well at the very least OWN that hatred read the Quran and come to your own conclusion why let someone else project their hatred into you…!

    The Quran Project is an initiative that offers Free copies of the Quran..and you can order your Free copy from the following website. http://quranproject.org/freequran.php

    Also their are a whole series of video lectures on Youtube on the Quran for beginners by Noman Ali Khan check those out.

  5. LibertyPhile says:

    @Ash

    You ignore (or miss) completely the main points of my comment.

    I have read the Quran. A large amount – I think at least 10%, possibly significantly more – is devoted to saying what will become of unbelievers (even if they are good people). They will burn in hell for eternity simply because they don’t believe. If that is not bad enough there is even more sadism involved.

    Not only are unbelievers made to be unbelievers by God himself, but “If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!” [18:29 Pickthall translation]

    There are also the repeated stories of the terrible fate of communities who did not heed earlier messengers. In fact, a huge amount of the Quran is repetition and many stories and events appear in sources that pre-date Mohammad. You could probably reduce the content of the Quran down to few pages of A4. There is more of value for humanity in the Sermon on the Mount.

    I think more people should read the Quran. It will confirm and strengthen their disbelief and dislike of Islam.

    Islam is founded on fear.

    On the day of judgement, what do you think will become of Mother Teresa, Nelson Mandela, Florence Nightingale, Martin Luther King, and my neighbour, who gave his fortune to the poor, took care of orphans, never harmed anyone, rejected usury, told the truth, and respected his parents. He also liked ham sandwiches, the occasional glass of wine, and was not one of the People of the Book?

  6. Ash says:

    @Libertyphile.

    You half quoted the following translation by Marmaduke Pickthall, concerning an Ayah of the Quran.
    This is what you stated: ‘Not only are unbelievers made to be unbelievers by God himself, but “If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!” [18:29 Pickthall translation]

    The following is the full text of what Pickthall wrote: Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!

    The half quotation by you, speaks for itself, and is a sign of academic dishonesty. Every one knows that to fully comprehend something in a book that is any book, then what any fair minded person would do is read the entire chapter, to fully grasp and comprehend the context of what has been stated.

    As for the rest of your remarks Arnoud Van Dorn whose video lecture I posted above spent years of his life propagating the exact message you are, and once he read the Quran that changed him, and thousands of others have also read it and have experienced the same effect.

    People can read and decide for themselves as Malcolm X put it…..” Look for your self, see for yourself and come to a decision by yourself…!”

  7. LibertyPhile says:

    @Ash

    The expanded quote provides more of the same. Islam is based on fear. Those who don’t believe, even if they are good people, will burn in hell for eternity. “Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them.”

    Concerning free will (let him believe, … let him disbelieve) there are other passages in the Quran saying God made everything the way it is. You are what you are, and you behave as you do, because God made you that way.

    I have read the entire Quran and I pretty well grasp and comprehend the context of what is stated. My “message”, as you put it, is based on reading the Quran.

    You haven’t answered the question. What do you think will become of the people I mention?

  8. Ash says:

    @Libertyphile

    Well my Dear Old Chum, you were answered thoroughly in my original reply, Inayat Bunglawala,
    decided not to post it, so I waited a couple of days and reposted a shortened response.perhaps it was due to the fact that my intial response was about three times longer then the original article posted by Inayat…. If you really want the answer you will have to take it up with him.

    Regardless it does not take away from the fact that you deliberately practiced deception, by
    only half quoting a verse and got caught out. Why did you do that?

  9. Ash says:

    Well probably need to posted in three parts.

    So here goes Part (1)

    Our Dear Old Friend @LibertyPhile feels that the point of his above post was either misunderstood or ignored.

    On the contrary the reasoning behind his post was understood perfectly.
    Lets examine this…..The Media by and large has an Islamaphobic agenda they scour the world looking for stories to villify demonise and dehumanise Muslims. Any positive story concerning Islam and muslims is usually ignored. And on the rare occasion they write a story that is positive concerning Islam or the muslims the editorial policy in these organisations is to offset it by throwing in a few negative remarks.
    So a few days ago the British Media and indeed many outlets across the western world reported on the finding of an alleged historic copy of the Quran by Birmingham university because of the historic nature and significance of this find the media could not ignore it and reported it in a neutral manner .

    The Islamaphobes were outraged by this story…Because as most studies in human behavior show, when an individual is blinded by hate they cannot even tolerate it if something neutral let alone positive is mentioned concerning the object of their hate. Blind hate makes the blood of the hater boil with rage. So the Islamaphobes and professional anti-Islam propagandists came out in force posting their usual ignorant hate filled nonsense in the comments section of various media organisations and blogs. As exemplified by our Dear Friend @Libertyphile, who upon reading this story decided to regurgitate the nonsense written in hundreds of Islamaphobe websites on the net and copy it here. No surprise there, only surprise is that he thought no one would actually notice the real reasoning which was to offset any positive vibe that readers might get concerning this story and to re-iterate and re-inforce the core propaganda of ignorant Islamaphobes that “Islam is evil and barbaric”.

    So Libertyphile My Dear Old Chum, I stated in my above post that Islamaphobes who constantly harp on about Islam at the very least, should read “The Idiots Guide To Islam” and “The Idiots Guide To the Quran”. In your case I think the ‘Idiots Guide’ would be too advanced. If you are going to make a living writing on a topic then one should atleast learn the ‘abc’s, of it.

    So your first objection was that the Quran mentions individuals and personalities that are mentioned in previous scriptures such that would be Adam and Eve, Moses and Jesus and so and so forth…..Even a school child who has taken a few basic religious education classes would know that Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are referred to as Abrahimic faiths
    and they are based on prophetic tradition, that is over the course of history many Prophets and messengers were sent as guides to the creation. So naturally all three traditions will mention some of the same personalities.

    Here is what a former Christian Youth Minister and an expert on textual criticism Joshua Evans has to say about this and you can listen to his compelling lecture here…. https://youtu.be/qmd1CbkjZy8

    And thoughts of many other former Christian ministers and who are now converts to Islam can be watched on the Deen Show website here….. http://www.thedeenshow.com/

    You also stated that “Islam is founded on Fear”, No the propaganda of ignorant Islamaphobes like yourself is founded on fear.

    You stated. “I think more people should read the Quran. It will confirm and strengthen their disbelief and dislike of Islam.” … No! what is clear from your above post is that you don’t think that all, thats why your frustrated and making a very poor attempt to prevent people from reading the Quran by using fear tactics and making remarks that are a load of balderdash, and the fact is even the Commanders in Chief of Islamaphobic propaganda such as Arnoud Van dourn, and Daniel Streich who were babbling the same propaganda that you are word for word, are reading The Quran and converting. And according to western media whose integrity according to you is beyond question, have written numerous articles claiming that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the west and people are converting in their thousands.

  10. Ash says:

    Part(2)

    The Day Of Judgement means that every individual regardless of who they are will receive a fair hearing before God concerning their life and how they lived it. They will be questioned about their deeds both good and bad. So even an Adolf Hitler who is presented as a symbol of pure evil will receive a fair hearing. So will Hitler enter paradise? Allah knows best, God alone is the most just, Hitler may have repented, he may have been sincerely been remorseful, before he died.

    You mentioned the story of your fictional and imaginary neighbour will he go to paradise? Considering he is a figment of your imagination then I think its up to your imagination. As for Islam it places deep emphasis and kindness and compassion to others, neighbours in particular. We don’t need to develop fictional accounts concerning this, here is
    story about an elderly Jewish Lady and her Muslim neighbours which was published in the Independent.
    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDAQFjACahUKEwiei6vyhobHAhXMvhQKHW91DPY&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Flife-style%2Fhealth-and-families%2Ffeatures%2Fa-story-about-an-elderly-jewish-lady-and-her-muslim-neighbours-who-cared-10294684.html&ei=wcW7Vd6mOsz9Uu_qsbAP&usg=AFQjCNG7SUvnEmxpwB5T2kingCt2FRdTWQ

    You half quoted the following translation by Marmaduke Pickthall, concerning an Ayah of the Quran.
    This is what LibertyPhile stated: ‘Not only are unbelievers made to be unbelievers by God himself, but “If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!” [18:29 Pickthall translation]

    The following is the full text of what Pickthall wrote:” Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!”

  11. Ash says:

    Part (3)

    So he deliberately left out the first part of the verse, and we will judge this deceitfulness by the standards of international courts, if an individual goes to court and is proven to have lied or practiced deception in his testimony then his entire testimony is stricken of that individual is regarded as someone whose words cannot be relied on. A sincere individual reads the entire chapter to grasp the proper context of what is written. He does not deliberatly misrepresent a verse, whilst ignoring the verses that came before and that came after. For those who are interested here is an entire commentary by Noman ali Khan on the entire chapter https://youtu.be/YLQC3TFcYDA
    so the above kind of deliberate misrepresentation is regularly practiced by Islamaphobes. But we bare no malice. One of our elders Shaykh Saleem gives the following example.

    “One of our pious predecessors was once walking with some of his students when he saw a scorpion drowning in some water. He looked around but could not find anything to lift the scorpion with so he tried to rescue it with his hands.When the Shaykh removed the scorpion from the water, it stung him. As a result of the pain, the Shaykh pulled his hand away. The scorpion again fell into the water. The Shaykh again tried to save its life but the same thing happened.One of his students said to him, “This scorpion is going to kill you, just leave it alone.” The Shaykh then sighed and said, “Even though the scorpion is dying it does not abandon its nature, which is to sting; how can I leave my nature of kindness and compassion and allow it to drown?”

    So we need to show some compassion to our dear friend LibertyPhile he is clearly drowning in hate. So on behalf of myself and all muslims who visit this blog, I would like to say from the bottom of my heart We Love You. And we sincereley hope you can find relief for your emotional issues.

    Finally he asked the fate of individuals, such as Martin Luther King, Mahatma Ghandi, Mother Theresa, Nelson Mandela. Like I said God is Just when Hitler will be treated with the infinite fairness and Justice so will these individuals. Unlike the whims of the western media, who one day portray an individual as virtuos and the next as evil and what is interesting is the unfair and unjust treatment of these individuals by the Media and the establishment in the west of which you are a part of. Mahatma Ghandi was condemned as a Fanatic and as a terrorist in the British Parliament and the media, Nelson Mandela was condemned as a terrorist by the politicians and media of the west. Martin Luther King, was slandered as an agitator, and egomaniac and womaniser. As for Mother Theresa numerous articles have been written since her death labeling her a fraud and charlatan, and your personal hero and icon Christopher Hitchens was at the forefront of this labelling her ‘Hells angel’.

  12. LibertyPhile says:

    “The Day Of Judgement means that every individual regardless of who they are will receive a fair hearing before God concerning their life and how they lived it. They will be questioned about their deeds both good and bad.”

    Where does it say that in the Quran?

    It contradicts the passage you quote (and many others – see below*) – unbelievers are dammed whatever they did – and you ignore the reference to Quranic passages that negate free will.

    *5:36 As for those who disbelieve, lo! if all that is in the earth were theirs, and as much again therewith, to ransom them from the doom on the Day of Resurrection, it would not be accepted from them. Theirs will be a painful doom.

    *5:37 They will wish to come forth from the Fire, but they will not come forth from it. Theirs will be a lasting doom.

    *5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

    *30:16 But as for those who disbelieved and denied Our revelations, and denied the meeting of the Hereafter, such will be brought to doom. [All Pickthall translations]

    As much as I study the surrounding verses and the chapter, I cannot see how these verses mean anything other than what they say.

    I would not go so far as to say “Islam is evil and barbaric”. I think it is lot of nonsense and some of it is dangerous nonsense which vastly outweighs the few good bits. E.g., care of orphans, giving to the poor, etc. One day mankind will look back on the Abrahamic faiths as we look back today on the beliefs of the ancient Egyptians and Greeks, with amusement and sometimes horror.

  13. Ash says:

    Well, Well, Well, @LibertyPhile Quite a conundrum for you my Dear old Fellow. You are trying to debate a topic, you have no knowledge of, it would have been wiser for you to stick to Geo-Political issues.Back in the 1970’s Dr Maurice Baucaille a french scientist found himself in the same predicament, whilst discussing the Quran with Muslims he was making the same ignorant assertions, the difference is he had actually read some works by french translators, but pretty soon he realised that relying on translations, was problematic the meanings the message and the eloquence of The Quran was being lost in Translation, and often the translators were translating into words that did not fully articulate what was being said nor the eloquence often the words used in the translations were completely wrong . So he decided if he was going to challenge the Quran he was going to have to learn some basic Arabic. He went on to write his highly acclaimed book ‘ The Bible,The Quran and Science’ and here is a video lecture of his on this research……https://youtu.be/crkq8HVvdm8

    In More recent years, Lesley Hazelton a British-American academic an agnostic of Jewish background, decided to make a study of the Quran, but she had the humility to accept her lack of prior and describes her journey through various works by Translators as being a tourist and for those interested here is a short 10 minute lecture by her…https://youtu.be/3Y2Or0LlO6g

    But you are a fascinating case, rather like an individual who decides to engage in the art of pugilism, without having studied the art, nor the Marquess of Queensbury rules, yet considers himself a Prizefighter. So what you did was went to some Islamaphobic forum, copied was written there and decided to post it here and tried to build an argument around it.

    Which was the following Translation by Pickthall…!:

    ” Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!” Marmaduke Pickthall

    Now lets compare Pickthalls translation of this verse with Arthur Arberrys.

    “Say: ‘The truth is from your Lord; so let whosoever will believe, and let whosoever will disbelieve.’ Surely We have prepared for the evildoers a fire, whose pavilion encompasses them; if they call for succour, they will be succoured with water like molten copper, that shall scald their faces — how evil a potion, and how evil a resting-place!”

    Now Pickthall has used the word “disbelievers” Arberry has used the word “evildoers” so which one is nearest to the approximate meaning to the real word used in the verse? lets look at other translators, Muhammad Sarwar has used the word “Unjust” Shakir in his translation has used the word, “Iniquotous”,Yusuf Ali in his translation has used the word “wrong Doers”.

    So @Libertyphile, What is the arabic word used? tell me which one is closest to the original arabic word used?, whats the syntax and morphology of the verse? Thats right you don’t know do you? Because not only have you not read the Quran in Arabic, despite your assertions its quite clear you have never even read a translation… Even worse, going by your most recent post you have not even bothered to read the verses you cut/pasted . You very forcefully talked about verses that negate free will, and you posted verses that have nothing to do with free will and which are about the punishment in the hereafter. And no where in the Quran does it say, “unbelievers are dammed whatever they did” Thats something you have just made up or read on some Islamaphobe forum. Fact is your totally clueless and ignorant it might work well on Neo-con forums were you have a willing audience of Islamaphobes buts it not working for you here is it would be better for you if you heeded
    the following advice of Shaykh Saadi Shirazi…”Nothing is so good for an ignorant man as silence; and if he was sensible of this he would not be ignorant.”

  14. LibertyPhile says:

    @Ash

    Part 1 of 2

    The Quran makes clear disbelief is one of the greatest evils/iniquities/wrongs/etc, if not the very greatest, so your “mistranslation” argument doesn’t go very far.

    There are dozens of passages in the Quran condemning disbelievers just because they are disbelievers.

    Here is a good example from my copy of the Quran. Not Pickthall. It’s The Qur’an, translation by Abdel Haleem, Oxford University Press, 2005. Abdel Haleem is, I believe, a native Arabic speaker and a hafiz.

    He summarises the passages as follows: … the Day of Judgement is inevitable and it will sort people into the humiliated and the richly rewarded. As in the previous sura, people are divided into three classes: those brought near to God (the best of the believers), those on the right (the ordinary believers), and those on the left (the disbelievers).

    Here are the verses:

    “41 But those on the Left, what people they are! 42 They will dwell amid scorching wind and scalding water 43 in the shadow of black smoke, 44 neither cool nor refreshing. 45 Before, they overindulged in luxury 46 and persisted in great sin, 47 always saying, ‘What? When we are dead and have become dust and bones, shall we then be raised up? 48 And our earliest forefathers too?’ 49 Say [Prophet], ‘The earliest and latest generations 50 will all be gathered on a predetermined Day 51 and you who have gone astray and denied the truth 52 will eat from the bitter tree of Zaqqum, 53 filling your bellies with it, 54 and drink scalding water, 55 lapping it like thirsty camels.’ 56 This will be their welcome on the Day of Judgement.”

  15. LibertyPhile says:

    Part 2 of 2

    There is another very good example in this extract “The Journey into the Hereafter (part 6 of 8): The Unbeliever on Judgment Day” on this Islamic website.
    http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/413/journey-into-hereafter-part-6/

    “And those who disbelieved will be driven to Hell in groups until, when they reach it, its gates are opened and its keepers will say: ‘Did there not come to you messengers from yourselves, reciting to you the verses of your Lord and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?’ They will say: ‘Yes, but the word (i.e., decree) of punishment has come into effect upon the disbelievers.’” (Quran 39:71)

    The first to enter Hell will be the pagans, followed by those Jews and Christians who corrupted the true religion of their prophets. Some will be driven to Hell, others will fall in it, snatched by hooks.

    ==

    Islam is founded on fear. Death for apostasy is a bad enough. What religion holds its followers by fear of death? But, the fear is there in the Quran.

    That’s why I said it was a sorry story* (the Quran) and it is immensely sad that otherwise intelligent, decent, people, believe it.

    *You took this to mean the story of the finding of the Quran fragment. I think that discovery is fascinating. The more objective and scientific analysis applied to Islam (e.g., Tom Holland) the better.

  16. Ash says:

    Part (1) of four.

    Our Dear Old Chum @LibertyPhile stated: “It’s a while since I read it, but what is it, 5%, or 10%, or 20%, or more, that is devoted to saying unbelievers (and God made them that way!) will burn in hell for ever, no matter how good they are, just because they don’t believe?”
    So he tries to make his argument look more compelling, by quoting percentages but only problem is he does not know what percentage,because the Islamaphobic websites he has been taking his information from all contain a different percentage, so is it 5% or 10% or 20%? If that is the case, then what do the other 95% or 90% or 80% contain? Thats a pretty large chunk of the scripture, since he is trying to present an academic argument then you would expect him to also clarify that, Our good old Libertyphile does not have a clue, because he has never read the Quran, so he just decided to throw in some random numbers to make himelf sound more sophisticated, like his hero, Tom Holland (the fiction writer who now calls himself a historian). Thats all good and well when you are posting on an Islamophobic forum. But that kind of stuff does not play here..! And no where in the Quran does it say
    ” unbelievers (and God made them that way!) will burn in hell for ever, no matter how good they are, just because they don’t believe?”

    Then he goes on to state: “It’s no better than the beliefs of aborigines who worship rocks.” And that is the same rhetoric that was used by the colonialists to slaughter the aborigines, they were portrayed as savages and barbarians, it was used as an excuse to commit genocide against them and even hunt them for sport, burn them alive, torture them horrifically , but according to Libertyphiles predecessors in the establishment it was okay just because they did not share the same belief. So on the day of judgement these poor helpless aborigines will be entitled to full Justice?

    “Say: ‘The truth is from your Lord; so let whosoever will believe, and let whosoever will disbelieve.’ Surely We have prepared for the evildoers a fire, whose pavilion encompasses them; if they call for succour, they will be succoured with water like molten copper, that shall scald their faces — how evil a potion, and how evil a resting-place!” 18:29 Arberrys translation.

    LibertyPhile then went on to state:” Not only are unbelievers made to be unbelievers by God himself, but “If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!” [18:29 Pickthall translation]

    He made the following assertion: “Not only are unbelievers made to be unbelievers by God himself,”

    This is what the first part of the verse he quoted said:”Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve….” 18:29 Pickthall

    So he deliberately tried to deceive, by leaving the part of the verse that refutes his propaganda and he got caught out…!
    Obviously if the assertion he had made was true there would have been no reason for him to practice deception.

  17. Ash says:

    Part (2)

    He then went on to state: “I think more people should read the Quran. It will confirm and strengthen their disbelief and dislike of Islam”…Well if that is indeed the case then surely as a dedicated anti_islam propagandist he should be encouraging people to get a free copy of the Quran and read it, and one would expect him to provide the following link , http://quranproject.org/freequran.php on his website….Why go around and round in circles like a dog chasing its tale using propaganda to try and disuade people to read the Quran, when the solution according to him, lies in encouraging people to read the Quran…The foolishness of his remark speaks for itself.

    But we as muslims bear no malice, he clearly is in need of some love and compassion, and we are taught to show compassion even to an ant.

    Shaykh Sadi al Shirazi States the following:

    ‘Shaykh Abu Bakr al Shibli purchased some grain from the city. Thereafter he tied it in a cloth, placed it on his head and carried it to his village. When he reached home he opened the bundle. He saw that in the grain there was an ant running about in distress.
    The Shaykh became extremely worried that perhaps the distress of the ant is due to being separated from a close associate. Perhaps its heart is uneasy due to the separation. The shaykh spent the entire night without a wink of sleep. The next morning he tied the cloth into a bundle again and travelled to the place where he had purchased the grain.
    When he reached the shop, he opened the bundle and released the ant.:
    (Jawaahir Paare)

    Our friend @LibertyPhile who is drowning in hate and is equally worthy of our compassion. Plus without even realising it he is a great assett, if one has a stall handing out free copies of the Quran why hire someone to design the advertising banner when we can use the following gem… “I think more people should read the Quran. It will confirm and strengthen their disbelief and dislike of Islam” Get your free copy to see if this is true’…Its called reverse marketing.

    Even LibertyPhiles caustic and clairvoyant remarks are borrowed he stated.
    ” One day mankind will look back on the Abrahamic faiths as we look back today on the beliefs of the ancient Egyptians and Greeks, with amusement and sometimes horror.”

    The Late american actor Dennis Weaver, a commited vegetarian made the following prediction:
    “There will come a time … when civilized people will look back in horror on our generation and the ones that preceded it — the idea that we should eat other living things running around on four legs, that we should raise them just for the purpose of killing them! The people of the future will say “meat-eaters!” in disgust and regard us in the same way we regard cannibals and cannibalism — Dennis Weaver”

  18. Ash says:

    Part (3)

    So on to the most recent offerings from @LibertyPhile he states:
    “The Quran makes clear disbelief is one of the greatest evils/iniquities/wrongs/etc, if not the very greatest, so your “mistranslation” argument doesn’t go very far.

    There are dozens of passages in the Quran condemning disbelievers just because they are disbelievers.”

    Firstly I think you need to work on your reading and comprehension skills I never used the word mistranslation. The point I made was quite clear if your gonna try an academic, and linguistic, critique of any work then you gotta be qualified for it… If you gonna make a linguistic critique of even a nursery rhyme, then you gotta to do so in the language it was written, and at the very least have a basic understanding of the subject matter being discussed….So If you are critiquing the work of Shakespeare, then you have to study and critique in the language Shakespeare wrote his works, because the German translation, French translation or any other translation, is not Shakespeare its somebody elses interpretation. So you are trying to present yourself as a textual critic, but your not qualified and in your case ‘ambition, is greater then the man.’ The Question still stands. Here a simple explanation on the issue by Wkipadaedia..https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCIQFjAAahUKEwj70Nzk9pTHAhVwR9sKHYmqBkU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FUntranslatability&ei=IpLDVfu3H_CO7QaJ1ZqoBA&usg=AFQjCNFtcV9C4EgPEVSg5zipBPdcPxrxuQ

    Then you gone , and found a PDF link to Abdullah Haleems translation , and decided to present the argument that his translation, is the one that you use,…… If that was the case you would not have been using Pickthalls in all your previous posts. The Fact remains you have never read the Quran, because if you had you would not copy/paste arguments from Islamaphobe websites.

    Whatsmore it is also quite obvious, you never even took a basic Religious, Education class in school. You argue that in Islam the Disbelivers are condemned for their disbeliefs and the believers are praised for their belief. Thats Religion 101. and its the case in every religion. What do you expect, the believers to be condemned and the disbelievers to be praised. So what your essentially saying is that you yourself are an ignoramus and that you don’t even know something as basic as that.

    Then we also have him going around in circles, not having a clue as to what the Day Of Judgement is, the following extract is from Dr.Jamal Badawi.

    Question.. “Is there anything in the Quran that explains the nature of the judgment and what will happen?”

    Dr. Jamal Badawi:

    There are plenty of references to this in the Quran because of the belief in The Day of Judgment and the belief in the life hereafter is a very integral component in the Muslim belief which tremendously affects his attitude and perspective on life.
    The first thing that should be emphasized is that the judgment is done with full justice. We find numerous references in the Quran for example (40:17) “no injustice will there be that Day.” In another widely quoted verse in (18:49)* “And not one will thy Lord treat with injustice.” The Quran also says that God would not do the least injustice, not even a portion of an atom of injustice in (4:40)**. We find the same thing in (10:44) which also emphasizes that no injustice will be done to anyone.
    In fact things will be so clear on The Day of Judgment that it is possible that a human being would be appointed as his own judge. There is an interesting concept that we find in the Quran about the book of deeds for example in (17:13-14) “Every man’s fate We have fastened on his own neck: On the Day of Judgment We shall bring out for him a scroll, which he will see spread open.(It will be said to him:) “Read thine (own) record: Sufficient is thy soul this day to make out an account against thee….”

    And for anyone who is seriously interested Dr Jamal Badawi has a series articles explaining it in laymans terms,……http://www.jamalbadawi.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38:411-muslim-beliefs-accountability-paradise-a-hellfire&catid=16:volume-4-muslim-beliefs&Itemid=17

    For those who are deficient in reading and comprehension skills… like our friend LibertyPhile ,https://youtu.be/1JCqbNUUJZw

  19. Ash says:

    Part (4)

    And another Gem from our friend Libertyphile:

    ‘Islam is founded on fear….. ‘

    And he has been chanting the word ‘fear’ like a religious mantra in his posts…standard propaganda technique that I am sure his paymasters have taught make an assertion and repeat it over and over again.”
    This guy is such an expert on theology that he does not know that in every religion, reward is promised for those who believe and are righteous and a punishment for those who aren’t.

    And in the Quran reward for goodnesss is promised over and over again. But the question remains why fear is also used.

    Every major behavioral study such as the one carried out by Kahneman, Knetsch, and Thaler (1990) has shown, that Fear is a prime motivator in human behaviour, and in the field of “Sales and Marketing” it has been studied extensively. And every major course in the art of selling teaches ‘Fear Sells”, and is a trigger in getting people to take immediate action. So people make purchases because they are afraid they might lose out on a bargain. If you advertise to people that if they purchase a new heating system they will save £100 a year you will receive at best a lukewarm response , but if you tell people they will continue to lose a £100 a year if they fail to purchase the new system this will trigger a far greater a response and an increase of your heating system.

    The entire Insurance industry is based on fear…If you do not have Insurance you will suffer crippling loss.

    Governments use Fear to get the population to get people to agree various harsh Laws and restrictions.
    Propagandists like our Dear government financed Islamaphobe friend LibertyPhile use Fear as the main component of their propaganda, the irony here is that he is objecting to Fear when his entire career is based on promoting fear…!
    For those interesting in reading more all you need to do is Google “Fear Sells”. And who better to know what Motivates his Creation then the Creator himself.

    Our Dear Old chap, LibertyPhile, finshed of his recent post with the following gem: ” The more objective and scientific analysis applied to Islam (e.g., Tom Holland) the better.” …This guy Tom Holland has been proven to be a charlatan and a hustler. So you my dear fellow sound like a besotted teenage girl who upon being told the object of her affections is a heartbreaker and player, says “He is so genuine” she only realises the error of her ways once she gets played. And you my friend have been waiting for over a week on here going around circles trying to extend this debate for as long as possible, hoping that Tom Holland is going to arrive as a Knight in shining armour, well even though he was informed of this article by Inayat Bunglawala and he has read the comments he has failed to arrive, so instead your flapping around on your own like a damsel in distress. Since your beyond any shadow of a doubt clueless perhaps you can get your dear friend and Minister of Islamaphobia Michael Gove to come and assist you, but I doubt he is going to be of much help, afterall the guy doesn’t know how to spell his own name, he doesnt even know that ‘Grove’ is spelt with an ‘r’.

  20. LibertyPhile says:

    @Ash

    If that is the standard of Islamic debate (at least 90% insults, embellishment, misconstruction, and gross repetition) no wonder the Islamic world is such a mess and so backward.

    Just one correction. I have read the Quran. You are entitled to call me a liar, if you wish. But I have read it, all of it, I assure you, and it was the most depressing experience.

    Calm down and accept that possibility, even for just a few seconds, that I am a reasonable person who has taken the trouble to learn about Islam for himself.

  21. Ash says:

    @LibertyPhile you also stated: Just one correction. I have read the Quran. You are entitled to call me a liar, if you wish. But I have read it, all of it, I assure you, and it was the most depressing experience.
    Calm down and accept that possibility, even for just a few seconds, that I am a reasonable person who has taken the trouble to learn about Islam for himself….”
    Well you are right I dont believe you, your comments above, prove otherwise…But if what you say is true then your remarks concering Islam and the Quran were a deliberate propaganda tactic and misrepresentation. Either way I am not too impressed. As for the Quran , the people reading Inayats blog, can order their free copy and decide for themselves. Following is wise advice by Malcolm X.

    “One of the first things I think young people, especially nowadays, should learn is how to see for yourself and listen for yourself and think for yourself. Then you can come to an intelligent decision for yourself. If you form the habit of going by what you hear others say about someone, or going by what others think about someone, instead of searching that thing out for yourself and seeing for yourself, you will be walking west when you think you”re going east, and you will be walking east when you think you”re going west. This generation, especially of our people, has a burden, more so than any other time in history. The most important thing that we can learn to do today is think for ourselves.

    It”s good to keep wide-open ears and listen to what everybody else has to say, but when you come to make a decision, you have to weigh all of what you”ve heard on its own, and place it where it belongs, and come to a decision for yourself; you”ll never regret it. But if you form the habit of taking what someone else says about a thing without checking it out for yourself, you”ll find that other people will have you hating your friends and loving your enemies. …”June 1964
    Al Hajj Malik al Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)

    So people decide for yourself, here is a recitation of Surah al Fatiha with English Translation, it is only 1 Minute and 47 seconds have a listen to the power and eloquence

    And here is a Lecture by the Late South African scholar Ahmed Deedat called ” Al Quran The Miracles of Miracles” some amazing facts find out what non-muslim Scholars such as Arthur Arberry and Reverend Boswell Smith said about the Quran ….https://youtu.be/-PqP0BCiTlE

    Here is a lecture about What Science and Scientists have said about the Quran By Dr Naik…https://youtu.be/-PqP0BCiTlE

    And here is a lecture by Noman Ali Khan on the Linguistic Miracle of the Quran…https://youtu.be/-PqP0BCiTlE

  22. Ash says:

    @LibertyPhile,

    My Dear Old Chap I am sorry your sensibilities have been offended.

    You state: “If that is the standard of Islamic debate (at least 90% insults, embellishment, misconstruction, and gross repetition) no wonder the Islamic world is such a mess and so backward.” The Sense of Irony seems to be lost on you…! So let me get this straight you run an Anti_Islam website, you have been making Venomous remarks and propaganda against Muslims all over the Internet, If one googles LibertyPhile we find your name all over the place attacking Islam and Muslims. 99.9% of your remarks about Islam and the Muslims are Ironically insults, embellishment, misconstruction, and gross repetition, and this you have been doing for years. You fully support British Medias Victimisation, Vilification, Demonisation ,and Dehumanisation, of Islam and Muslims on a daily basis, when Muslims complain you deny that there is any Islamaphobia in the media, and accuse the Muslims of playing the victim card. And 99.9% of the relentless propaganda remarks made by the British Media about Islam and Muslims, are insults, embellishments, miscontructions, and gross repetition…And any Reasonable person especially someone acknowledge the behaviour of the media is disgusting to say the least.

    You offer your Tacit Support to Islamaphobes and charlatans, like Majid Nawaz, Robert Spencer, Douglas Murray, Michael Gove, and Tim Holland etc… . When Muslims complain, you rally to the support of individuals of this Ilk and accuse the Muslims of playing the victim card, and being opposers freedom of speech.

    And your own remarks on Inayats Corner, have been by there very nature insults, embellishments and misconstruction and gross repetition. Therefore I could easily ask you , if you are in any reasonable position to complain, but I am not going to do that…You have been offended so therefore I apologise …!

  23. LibertyPhile says:

    Nothing you’ve said or referenced has changed the fact that the Quran condemns disbelievers to hell for eternity no matter how good they might have been. There is even an element of sadism in the punishment.

    It is right to say Islam is based on fear.

    You admit it in so many words with your mini-lecture on the role of fear in human behaviour. Some people might hope that if there is a God it transcends human nature as we know it and certainly doesn’t threaten disbelievers with having only boiling liquid to drink.

    I’m impressed with your research on LibertyPhile and pleased to learn that what I write is getting around. Most of it is aggregation of what reliable media reports.

    Have you seen yesterday’s BBC report of a Bangladeshi blogger known for his atheist views being hacked to death? Other reports you might be interested in include “Why has scientific progress stalled in many Islamic countries?” by Dr Zou’bi in the Times Higher Education, and (a bit of good news!), the BBC also reports the Supreme Court in Pakistan has suspended the execution of a Christian woman convicted of blasphemy.

    Please don’t apologise for any offence you may have caused. Your concentration on me as a person and attempts at ridicule only emphasise the weakness of your argument, and the bag of contradiction and nonsense that is Islam.

  24. James Coleman says:

    Excellent discussion. Really enjoyed reading it. But clearly the final score is: Ash 5. Libertyphil 0

  25. LibertyPhile says:

    @Ash

    You say above:

    “The Day Of Judgement means that every individual regardless of who they are will receive a fair hearing before God concerning their life and how they lived it. They will be questioned about their deeds both good and bad. So even an Adolf Hitler who is presented as a symbol of pure evil will receive a fair hearing.”

    In other words those whose good deeds outweigh their bad deeds will go to paradise and the reverse will go to hell fire.

    If this is the case, what is the point of being a Muslim? All you need to be concerned about is the life you have led.

    There are people, possibly many, who have given generously to the poor, taken care of orphans, looked after their own children, respected their parents, (nearly always) told the truth, behaved modestly, not committed adultery, or stolen anything (apart from office pencils) whose good deeds outweigh their bad deeds; and they are Hindus, atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Jews, Christians, ancestor worshippers ….

    They do not believe the Quran is the word of God, or that Mohammad was God’s messenger. Many of them think it is nonsense, some of it dangerous nonsense.

    Admittedly, some eat pork and drink modest amounts of wine (but no more than medical advice recommends).

  26. Ash says:

    @Libertyphile

  27. Ash says:

    @Libertyphile.

    No! In other words, you need some lessons in reading and comprehension. This is what I wrote.

    The Day Of Judgement means that every individual regardless of who they are will receive a fair hearing before God concerning their life and how they lived it. They will be questioned about their deeds both good and bad. So even an Adolf Hitler who is presented as a symbol of pure evil will receive a fair hearing. So will Hitler enter paradise? Allah knows best, God alone is the most just, Hitler may have repented, he may have been sincerely been remorseful, before he died.

    So I ask in all Seriousness are you dyslexic?. It would have been better for you, to read the links I gave concerning the day of judgement. If that is too much for you then all you needed to do is contact the Professor of Islamic studies, and find out what the Islamic concept of day of judgement is. Instead having been stung by the low score given to you by the respected reader above, your ego got bruised and you decided to comeback into the fray with more nonsense.

    Here is a Sufi parable for you..!

    “Mahmud was a very pious man, but he was not very attractive looking. One day, he was walking along the road, minding his own business, when a lady came up to him, and started calling him names and abusing him. This lady kept saying all kinds of nasty things, and Mahmud just listened to her patiently. Finally, when she was finished calling him names and abusing him, Mahmud just greeted her, smiled, and said

    “and a nice day to you,” and continued on his way.
    Why did Mahmud, the pious man, behave this way?
    It is because he knew that everything she said was just a reflection of her own inner self.”
    from Irshad
    by Sheikh Muzaffer Ozak al-Jerrahi

    So your innerself old chap is filled with nonsense, dangerous nonsense. Thats why you are unable to put a coherent argument together….But we the Muslims Love You, after all who is more worthy of compassion then someone whose every moment is filled with hatred. As a a Sufi poet once wrote, ” How just is hatred, it first burns the one filled with hate before it reaches the object of his hate.”.. Since you are deficient in comprehension skills what the poet meant was that the one filled with hatred, harms only himself with anxiety, depression, hypertension, diabetes and multitude of other illnesses. Let go of the Hatred, Old Chap,… We the Muslims Love You, after all who is more worthy of compassion then someone whose every moment is filled with irrational hatred, whose entire world runs around running a website to promote hatred, and whose internet presence is about promoting hate.

  28. LibertyPhile says:

    @Ash

    This is what you wrote:

    “The Day Of Judgement means that every individual regardless of who they are will receive a fair hearing before God concerning their life and how they lived it. They will be questioned about their deeds both good and bad. So even an Adolf Hitler who is presented as a symbol of pure evil will receive a fair hearing.”

    Plus ….

    “So will Hitler enter paradise? Allah knows best, God alone is the most just, Hitler may have repented, he may have been sincerely been remorseful, before he died.”

    In other words those whose good deeds outweigh their bad deeds will go to paradise and the reverse will go to hell fire. [N.B. These are not my words but how one of you links summarises it.]

    If this is the case, what is the point of being a Muslim? All you need to be concerned about is the life you have led; do your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds. And, if you are genuinely remorseful before you die for anything bad that you did you may still be forgiven.

    What is the point of being a Muslim? There are those who do not believe the Quran is the word of God, or that Mohammad was God’s messenger. Many of them think it is nonsense, some of it dangerous nonsense, but by any standard their good deeds outweigh their bad deeds. And, even those whose bad deeds are on the heavy side, might be forgiven.

  29. Ash says:

    @Libertyphile.
    Will Rogers who was born in 1879 and died in 1935, became one of the most celebrated stars of the 1920’s and 1930’s, he was a man of many talents, comedian, motion picture star, musician, and he wrote hundreds of nationally syndicated articles.

    But through the passage of time he has largely been forgotten, only thing that remains of his legacy is a quote of his that has been used by hundreds of writers since his death, what quote is it you may ask?, My Dear Old Chum LibertyPhile, he stated the following…”If You find yourself in a hole stop digging”, and he also stated, ” Never miss an opportunity to shutup”. Advices you would have done well to heed about a dozen posts ago, instead of going around and round in circles it would have been a far more dignified exit for you. I appreciate your dilemma, you on various forums are well used to having the last word, the reason being most people just tended to ignore you, but you thought because nobody bothered arguing with you that somehow you had compelling arguments and that you were like the Heavyweight champion of the World.

    Unfortunately, for you recently you have been faced with a brother from the innercity, well versed in the art of prizefighting, and the ability to counter with a check hook, each time. So the only option you are left with is to keep going around in circles, waiting for Inayat Bunglawala to post his next article, so that you can make an exit….Good Luck with that Old Chap.

    You stated the following…” [N.B. These are not my words but how one of you links summarises it.]”…… So my Dear Old Chap given your history so far, and the fact you have been exposed again and again for deliberately misquoting and misrepresenting statements and scriptures, I am sure you will agree that it is perfectly reasonable to ask you to insert the link, you have alluded to so people can read what was actually said.

    The story so far is that our Dear Old Friend, LibertyPhile, was arguing that Islam is unforgiving and it is a nonsense and now in his latest post, he is arguing Islam is nonsense because there is too much forgiveness…These are the ramblings of an overmatched pugilist realising he does not have much to offer, who is stubbornly trying, to hang on by hook or crook, to at least make it to the final bell…Dont worry My Dear Old Chap, we the muslims Love you and through our compassion we will let you last until the final bell.

    But saddest part is that with all the private Schooling you have had, and a very expensive University Education, that you are getting whipped by a brother, from the innercity who is going freestyle, on you,… I think you need to go back and get a refund.

  30. LibertyPhile says:

    @Ash

    I wouldn’t dream for a second that I could outlast you in words. Where 10 would do, you write a hundred (which still don’t say very much).

    You really don’t want to answer the question do you. Your answer might just prove what I have been saying about Islam.

  31. Ash says:

    @LibertyPhile.

    Well I am sorry old chap that your sensibilities are once again offended, I did not learn my style of debating, on the young conservatives Student association, like yourself. What you been on the receiving end off, is called Freestyle originated in the inner cities of America, albeit a very mild version of Freestyle I don’t think you would be able to handle the full impact version.

    Well my friend you could use a hundred words or a thousand I have no objections, because what you have been saying Nothing, Nada, Zilch, hence why your score is still on Zero.

    Well you have failed to provide a link, which you claimed you made your assertion on. Once you do that you will be answered comprehensively, other wise, your comment seems nothing more then a personal rambling of yours, which requires no answer.

    So far we can say with good certainty that your knowledge of Islam is equivalent to the expert who stated, that 100% of Schools in Pakistan teach the Al Qaida, manual, not realising that the Word Qaida means base…and the booklet that teaches the alphabet is called Qaida, and it has been since before Bin Laden was even born.

    Maybe we can also categorise you with the Expert on Islam, who appeared on Fox TV and, was labelled an Idiot by David Cameron. What was his name oh yes Steve Emerson… https://youtu.be/p_LIiqEUWXI were does the establishment find guys like you.

  32. LibertyPhile says:

    @Ash

    It is easy to become a Muslim, I believe. It requires only a simple profession of faith. And, it takes a few simple words to divorce your wife!

    But you can’t tell me in a few simple words why anyone should be a Muslim if all that determines their fate, Muslim or non-Muslim, is the balance of their good and bad deeds.

    I think the Quran is clear. You have to be a believer. See your quote above: “Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!”

    What a religion!

    Perhaps someone should try out your long winded web sermons and stories on those young ISIS men enslaving and raping non-Muslim women.

    You can read about the problem here: “How Isis has established a bureaucracy of rape” by Nussaibah Younis – Yazidi women have been subjected to a savage practice justified by Islamic State on religious grounds http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/16/isis-systematic-rape-sharia-justification-sex-slavery

  33. LibertyPhile says:

    For information
    “LibertyPhile says:Your comment is awaiting moderation. August 16, 2015 at 3:15 pm
    The last comment should have been posted as LibertyPhile”

    The above was posted in error.

  34. Ash says:

    Our dear old chap @LIbertyphile States…”Perhaps someone should try out your long winded web sermons and stories on those young ISIS men enslaving and raping non-Muslim women.”

    Well Old Chap perhaps your colleagues the Morons in the Establishment, should have tried out some sermons before funding and creating, this Frankenstein organisation,we condemn it and we fully condemn the Baron Frankensteins in the C.I.A. and British Intelligence for creating and funding such organisations….! But of course were not going to hear that aspect of it from you,
    Afterall, the sames numpties in the establishment that are funding you, are the ones that recruited this Baghdadi Character and helped create his organisation, even taught him how to use the social media as a recruiting tool….If you wanna put the blame on someone go put it on yourself….Perhaps Old chap someone should try out your long winded web sermons and stories on the Baron Frankensteins in the establishment, problem is if you do that then they are gonna cut of your funding innit Old Chap.

    I did provide a Link to Dr Jamal Badawis website so you can learn the basics, not my fault you dont know how to click on a link…..http://www.jamalbadawi.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=16&Itemid=17

    As for the rest of the rhetoric, I will let Pastor Dowell
    answer this in simple terms his not a muslim, but here is his lecture called “White women
    converting to Islam at an alarming rate.”….https://youtu.be/IOzk2Lo0XDU.

    So will only muslims got to paradise, what if someone who has never heard of Islam will they be condemned to hell? What about someone who is an atheist… Shaykh Farahan Malik has this to say…https://youtu.be/Qj3JrYLYCQ8

    About umpteen posts ago I stated the following now you want to point what exactly was unreasonable in what I stated?, why you have been so desperate to prevent people from coming to a decision for themselves? I stated….”So in conclusion for those of you who hate Islam and the Muslims well at the very least OWN that hatred read the Quran and come to your own conclusion why let someone else project their hatred into you…!

    The Quran Project is an initiative that offers Free copies of the Quran..and you can order your Free copy from the following website. http://quranproject.org/freequran.php

    Also their are a whole series of video lectures on Youtube on the Quran for beginners by Noman Ali Khan check those out.”

    And for readers who missed it…the first round between myself, and @Libertyphile was in the comments section of the articlcle in Inayats corner titled…”British Muslims and the .I.S. Blame Game”, have a read….Poor old Libertyphile did not do well in the previous round either.

    So Libertyphile , you consider yourself a master propagandist, and you have been doing this kind of stuff for years…You know how many times, I have been engaged in this type of debate? Let me tell you Twice, the first time was with you, and second time is with you and you got hammered both times…..Because frankly you have no knowledge…. So go take a few classes on religion then comeback maybe you will be able to put a better contest…! I know you feel Sad and unloved
    alot of your anger issues are probably to do with that, Here is some Loving advice from Maulana Jalaludin Rumi he states: “Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.”…So my friend let go of that hatred as we can see from your above post, it is badly starting to affect your emotional health.

    Whatsmore Old chap, you gotta think of your audience also…try and be a bit more entertaining,
    So far I have been doing most of the heavy lifting to keep the readers engaged, its time for you to step up, you game.
    ,

  35. LibertyPhile says:

    The power and influence of Baghdadi, a British agent, is amazing. [A BA, MA and PhD in Islamic studies (?), and he probably knows how to use twitter] He has tens of thousands doing his bidding, 100s of thousands, if not millions, applauding his work. I think it has a lot more to do with the nature of Islam than the CIA or British intelligence.

    As for me, I would be delighted if I was paid for my efforts, but no such luck.

    You have a talent for twisting things. I fully support and encourage people to read the Quran and to make up their own mind. Like me, many will find it an appalling story, full of threats and violence. The little that encourages decent behaviour is found amongst the works of other faiths and of no faith everywhere.

    I find it very sad that otherwise, intelligent, decent people, can believe so much nonsense.

    I goggled “can non-Muslims go to heaven”. (Perhaps you have done this but don’t want to share the result, instead linking to the Saudi lone voice). The majority Muslim opinion is that they can’t. There is also a sizeable body of Muslims who indulge in the most convoluted reasoning to come up with a possibility that in some circumstances non-Muslims make it to Paradise. It’s comical at times.

    Don’t be too concerned with “keeping the readers entertained”. I think the only people reading this are you, me, and Mr Bunglawala (and I’m not even sure about him!).

  36. Ash says:

    In his latest, our Dear Old Fellow @Libertyphile states: “The power and influence of Baghdadi, a British agent, is amazing. [A BA, MA and PhD in Islamic studies (?), and he probably knows how to use twitter] He has tens of thousands doing his bidding, 100s of thousands, if not millions, applauding his work. I think it has a lot more to do with the nature of Islam than the CIA or British intelligence.”

    What he has failed to mention is he went to Wikipaedia and repeated the above credentials of this Baghdadi character and the subsequent paragraph states the following:

    “They (the US and Iraqi Governments) know physically who this guy is, but his backstory is just myth”, said Patrick Skinner of the Soufan Group, a security consulting firm. “He’s managed this secret persona extremely well, and it’s enhanced his group’s prestige”, said Patrick Johnston of the RAND Corporation, adding, “Young people are really attracted to that.”[26] He is so unrecognized even in his own organization Baghdadi is nicknamed “the invisible sheikh”.

    So his back story is a myth, initially, when he emerged on the scene it was stated that he was a low level administrator working in a government office during the Saddam era. Then they claimed
    he was probably a cleric in a mosque and now to help enhance his religious credentials is the new C.I.A. claim, that he has a BA +MA+PHD in Islamic studies except there are no record of this…!

    Here is what the Guardian has to say about CIA and MI6…https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC8QFjACahUKEwikwNiJ67DHAhVBVRoKHW4PA9M&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fcommentisfree%2F2015%2Fjun%2F03%2Fus-isis-syria-iraq&ei=8zPSVeT6HcGqae6ejJgN&usg=AFQjCNHeWR3eThouafHnLNqRk4OwsUqfKg

    Here is an admission from American General Wesley Clark (who incidentally calls the isis as Frankensteins),….https://youtu.be/ojcoKnTGf4s
    Fact is the British and American intelligence agencies have a history and an entire production line of Frankensteins, Pinochet, Mbotu, Suharto, Ferdinand Marcos, Saddam Hussain, Noriega, Al Qaeda..and the list is endless, so old chap we can wash your excuses down the drain.

    Then @Libertyphile stated the following….”You have a talent for twisting things. I fully support and encourage people to read the Quran and to make up their own mind. Like me, many will find it an appalling story, full of threats and violence. The little that encourages decent behaviour is found amongst the works of other faiths and of no faith everywhere.

    I find it very sad that otherwise, intelligent, decent people, can believe so much nonsense.”

    Well thats because frankly you lack intelligence, along with the ability to read and comprehend, thats why intelligent decent people are reading and converting, Ironically you are helping them without even realising.
    As for the rest of his remarks then common sense dictates If that is indeed the case then he would not have been spending all this time, over the last 2 weeks engaging in propaganda when all he needed to do was say..”People read the Quran, you will find out my assertions are true” problem is he himself has never read the Quran…And people from his own ranks like Arnoud Van Dorn are reading and converting….!

    The fact is he asked what would happen to his fictional neighbour, along with Dr Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa and host of other luminaries on the Day of Judgement. The answer has been given… but it still fails to register in his brain.

    So tell me @Libertyphile what does the following verse mean…”Maaliki Yawmid-Deen”? why dont you Goggle and find out…!

    For the benefit of readers here is what Shaykh Omar Suleiman has to say…https://youtu.be/1JCqbNUUJZw

    @ LibertyPhile About 1.5 Billion muslims on the planet, according to the western media, the fastest growing religion in the west Islam….! Your efforts are failing infact counterproductive, when I posted the link to the video of Arnoud van Dorn, on how he went from being Europes leading Islam haters to converting to Islam, the number of hits on the video were just over 71,000 guess how many have viewed it since, all thanks to you, for keeping the debate going….! You will continue to fail Insha’Allah

  37. LibertyPhile says:

    I’m not sure which is worse; Baghdadi, BA, MA and PhD in Islamic studies or Baghdadi, a low level administrator, or possibly a non-entity, appointing himself Caliph.

    But whatever his qualifications he has tens of thousands of Muslims doing his bidding, 100s of thousands of Muslims, if not millions, applauding his work and it is a stark example of the nature of Islam. If you live in cloud-cuckoo land you have to admit, the CIA and British intelligence have done a brilliant job.

    I don’t think you read or listen properly to your own references. A disbeliever, who has never heard of Islam, or of Mohammad, or who died too young to understand, gets a chance to enter the heavenly gardens.

    The rest of mankind who know about Islam and think it nonsense face the fire as the Quran states.

  38. Ash says:

    So now what we have is, Our Dear Old LibertyPhile…..With not much left to offer, playing the role
    of the obstinate Old Colonel, who also happens to be deaf and blind as a bat, in a Agatha Christie
    novel… and keeps uttering ” Nonsense, Nonsense, I tell you its all nonsense”, Fact is Poor Old Colonel Libertyphiles brain is filled with nonsense, so his speech is only a reflection of what is dominant in is his mind.

    So the Dear Old Chap has decided to return to an Old colonial six point strategy.

    1) Make certain claims.
    2) When those claims are answered and refuted, Ignore the answers that have been given.
    3) Repeat the same claims, but make a bold claim that no one is capable of answering you.
    4) When those claims are answered and refuted, again Ignore the answers that have been given.
    5) Repeat the same claims, this time claim that you are being treated unfairly and being victimised, and ridiculed.
    6) When pointed towards answers that have already been given, again completely ignore them, Rinse and Repeat.

    These are the ramblings of a nonsensical mind, so what the good Old Colonel is now saying is that even though, all the evidences for the creation of ISIS leads right back to Rome and its Empire. And even though political commentators in the west are acknowledging the fact and even though decorated Generals like Wesley Clark are admitting the Incontrovertible fact that without CIA, MI6 and the other Baron Frankensteins in the west there would not have been, any ISIS , and its Cult of Hollywood Jihadis, and that the most Sophisticated tools, of psychological propaganda were provided to this cult, to help it recruit thousands of young members to do its bidding, ……. According to Libertyphile all this is irrelevant, it is the nature of Islam…No my dear old fellow it is the nature of the Colonial mindset, as Pastor Dowell pointed out in the video I posted above, the methods and attrocities being used by ISIS were the ones used to commit genocide, against the Native American Indian tribes, the millions of Africans slaves and by the Colonialist all over the world against native peoples….These chaps that you spend time drinking afternoon tea and eating cucumber sandwiches with are fully to blame..So go put the blame on yourself and your paymasters.The evidence is so clear that there is no need for Hercule Poirot, to look into it, C.I.A. and all its allies Must be condemned and held to account.

    But what Dear Old Colonel Libertyphile is saying is that anyone who points out this fact is living in Cuckoo Land…No my Dear Old fellow your Brain is filled with Cuckoos.

    Afterall a Brain filled with commonsense uses its time wisely and writes letters and notes of gratitude and affection to its loved ones, whilst a brain filled with nonsense wastes its time making
    propaganda against the objects of its hate…! Your not making a very good fist of that either old chap, better luck next time.

  39. LibertyPhile says:

    Your wordy responses don’t hide the fact you have not answered (except in your imagination) the question posed at the beginning of this dialogue.

    “I have read the Quran. A large amount – I think at least 10%, possibly significantly more – is devoted to saying what will become of unbelievers (even if they are good people). They will burn in hell for eternity simply because they don’t believe.”

    Though many Muslims are uncomfortable with this and come up with all sorts of arguments to wriggle round it, the majority understanding and what the Quran says is clear.

    A link you promote, in fact, shows this!

    If you try to take refuge in the view the Quran can only be understood if interpreted by experts (who, of course, will come up with different interpretations) then you show what man-made nonsense it is.

    Islam is a “fast growing” religion because of the birth rate. The conversions are outweighed by the many who are quietly giving up. Of course those in a religion which applies so much stigma to disbelief and even maintains the death penalty for apostasy are going to be cautious, but even then, Islam is the only religion I know, that has a Council for ex-members in the UK.

  40. Ash says:

    @Inayat why is my previous comment back in moderation.

    @LibertyPhile, My Dear Old Chap, you have been answered more then once, how has that not been answered?
    What does “Maaliki Yawmid-Deen” mean?
    Wriggle around what exactly? That there is a Day of Judgement and a Paradise and that there is a hell, and those who have been judged to hell will burn in it for eternity? and your point?
    The Link I promote shows what exactly?
    That every individual will be judged, according to there beliefs and their deeds, and with complete and infinite justice? and your objection to this is what, that they should not be judged according to their beliefs, and their deeds and with complete Justice?
    If you are so obsessed with going to hell, and keep harping on about it, then why would I feel uncomfortable? That s your personal choice.

    You repeating the word Nonsense over and over again is an academic argument under what criterion?

    How many people in the UK and infact around the world had death penalty carried out against them for apostasy during the last year? and in what countries?

    Your own media is saying that Islam is the fastly growing religion in the west, so are you claiming they are telling fibs? If so why?

    So there is a Billion dollar, Islamaphobia, industry, and all kinds of individuals are making money from it be it a Quilliam foundation, Libertyphile, Tom Holland, Henry Jackson society, and a Council of ex-members? and your point is what? That they are taking a share of your pie?

    Why are you saying,… “the CIA and British intelligence have done a brilliant job.” In funding and Creating ISIS and its Cult of Hollywood Jihadis,? Where is your condemnation of CIA and British intelligence?

    And what is the nature funding received by the Libertyphile website? What are your precise connections to British intelligence? Where are your handlers based, Foreign and commonwealth office? Or the Home office?

    Since you been asking the questions now its time for you to start answering isn’t it Old chap?
    By the way how many times have you repeated the word nonsense, in your discussion so far?

    “If this government thinks that they can wage a war against Islam they have another thing coming, in 1400 years what has been proven time and time again is that Islam is indestructible, Islam is indestructible Islam is indestructible,”
    Senator Pat Buchanan right wing Republican and former presidential candidate.
    Here is Hamza Yusufs response…https://youtu.be/Mx_OopuSEQY

  41. LibertyPhile says:

    “That every individual will be judged, according to there [sic] beliefs and their deeds, and with complete and infinite justice? and your objection to this is what, that they should not be judged according to their beliefs, and their deeds and with complete Justice?”

    In a round about way you finally agree with me. People are judged according to their beliefs. According to Islam a good person goes to hell simply because they do not believe in God or that Mohammad was God’s messenger.

    The Quran is full of this kind of hate. All your sophistry, “complete” and “infinite” justice, doesn’t hide this fact.

  42. Ash says:

    @Libertyphile, So you back for some more, and your response is complete balderdash isn’t it old chap.

    Note his sophistry in avoiding every question that was asked.

    You really should have attended some Religious education classes my dear old fellow, Sure belief
    is important in every religion thats religion 101 so what you are saying know in a round about way is that your not only ignorant but you are also stupid, so the argument he is presenting in a round about way is that belief for a religion should be irrelevant. What kind of ridiculous nonsense is that.

    Libertyphile chose the following as his number one book of all time, “(1) “The Bible as History”, Werner Keller. This book was given to me as a prize at school (not for Scripture). I remember being amazed to discover that some of the things in the Bible are based on events that really happened!”

    So what does your Bible say about that?

    The Quran says everybody will be treated with Justice on the day of judgement, where ever the verses of hell are mentioned in the Quran, the verses of paradise are also mentioned, where ever Gods punishment is mentioned Gods Love mercy and forgiveness is also mentioned.

    So we have Colonel Libertyphile practicing academic deception but these Islamaphobes art full of this kind kind of hate.
    .
    I am just interested to see how long you can keep this up, so let me get this you took a week off hoping that I have lost interest, so you can sneak in and get the last word. That is not happening.

    So Libertyphile man up and show some colonel like courage and answer the Questions that were asked of you in the previous post and dont forget to tell us, what your favourite book of all time has to say.On this topic also.

  43. LibertyPhile says:

    You gave the following quote near the beginning:

    “The following is the full text of what Pickthall wrote: Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!”

    It sums it all up.

    Please give me a quote from the Quran that makes clear in some cases or circumstances disbelievers* may avoid this fate.

    *That is those who don’t believe there is a God or that Mohammad was God’s messenger.

  44. Ash says:

    @LIbertyphile

    You stated the following…”Calm down and accept that possibility, even for just a few seconds, that I am a reasonable person who has taken the trouble to learn about Islam for himself.”

    When clearly you dont even know the very basic.

    So lets not Dilly Dally around out old chap, kindly answer the questions already asked of you.

    In addition to that I got some more questions for you, I am sure you have heard of the five pillars of Islam. (1) So tell me whats the first pillar of Islam? (2) What is the literal translation of the word ‘Islam’? (3) What does the word “Muslim” Mean? (4) What is a Hadith? and finally what does your (5) Ancestral religion have to say about belief in God and disbelief in God? What have Werner and Keller written about it…Or perhaps you can aske your fellow church going Islamaphobes Douglas Murray, and Michael Gove.

    Once you done that we can move on, and you will responded to thoroughly with which ever style you want, Academic Style, Pretentious Colonial style, or Detroit Freestyle.

    Here is some wise advice from the ancient Chinese General Sun Tzu

    “If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you are a fool you will succumb in every battle.”
    – Sun Tzu

    Your score is still Zero old chap….!

  45. LibertyPhile says:

    I’ll take that as a “no”. There isn’t anything in the Quran that makes clear in some cases disbelievers may avoid hell for eternity.

    What a dreadful religion!

    If this is wrong, instead of wild accusations and childish bluster, simply quote the relevant passage.

  46. Ash says:

    @Libertyphile, What a dreadful attempt at Goading old chap,…..!
    curious word is this “Goad”… this is what the dictionary has to say about it “Goad means to provoke or annoy (someone) so as to stimulate an action or reaction.”

    Where I’m from its called the Harlem Shuffle, you are not very good at this either.
    In the words of the Legendary boxing coach and Philosopher Cus D’amato,…” When a fighter realises he is overmatched and has nothing to offer, and that he does not have the skillset to beat his opponent, he will then try to verbally goad his opponent, that is an acknowledgement that his defeat is certain and it will be absolute….”

    This was exemplified at its best on 14th February 1951 when Jake La Motta, faced Sugar Ray Robinson in Chicago, the fight itself resulted in one of the most brutal beatings seen inside the prize fighting ring, as the limited but stubborn La Motta, was out skilled, out thought, and out played, by Sugar Ray Robinson. The fight has gone down in boxing folklore as “the St Valentines day massacre”.

    Kind of like what were seeing here, but humiliating thing for you is that this is your arena, you projected yourself as a master anti-Islam propagandist, yet you have been outclassed by a regular brother from the streets of the innercity.

    So let me get this straight, on the 20th of August, I asked you a set of simple straightforward questions, you disappeared for about a week. When you re-appeared you decided to dodge every single question that was asked hoping nobody would notice….Instead you decided to play the colonial strategy of goading, hoping you could bluster your way out of answering the questions that were asked… Except I am calling you out on your game of Dodge ball, Answer the Questions? And then we can move forward.

    You stated; ” I’ll take that as a no”…! Well my dear old chap you should take that as ” No this guy is not gonna allow me to dodge answering the questions that have been asked.”

    You further stated…”There isn’t anything in the Quran that makes clear in some cases disbelievers may avoid hell for eternity.”… The fact is I already provided three different Scholars and experts on the Quran, in my previous posts Shaykh Farhan Malik, Shaykh Omar Sulaiman, and Dr Jamal Badawi, disproving your nonsense. So now your new strategy is to try and prove that those Islamic Scholars, are mistaken. Whilst your bigotry and ignorance is correct, and this despite having never read the Quran, talk about delusions of grandeur you have not been able to rumble with a random guy from the innercity, but now you think your gonna take on 1400 years of Islamic Scholarship on the issue. All this despite being totally ignorant.

    You wanna know which verse then order your free copy of the Quran, atleast have the common sense and courtesy to read it,before trying to debate on it…And if you search for the root words “Rahma” “adl” “yawm” Meezan” “qiyamah”
    They will lead you right to the verse, this is whats called the art of Academic research so go and do some.

    Before you respond dont forget to answer the questions that have been asked of you, and dont forget to mention what your copy of werner and keller and your ancestral religion has to say about the day of judgement, and paradise and hell and the fate of disbelievers.

  47. LibertyPhile says:

    I have read the Quran.

    I have watched the videos and read the pages you link to.

    It is remarkable that you don’t quote any internationally recognised Islamic authorities, a Grand Mufti, a Grand Ayatollah, Al-Azhar University, etc., let alone that you don’t give me any Quranic references.

    Instead you reference little know individuals, of little standing, and possibly rather eccentric. Islam is such an intellectual morass I’m sure one can find an Islamic proponent who holds any opinion under the sun that you care to choose.

    And even more remarkable, those you reference don’t even support your stance! You are either the perpetrator or victim of hypocrisy and double talk.

    Apparently, according to Shaykh Farahan Malik, there are two kinds of atheists. (1) Arrogant and doesn’t do research, and a denier that reviles religion, and (2) the serious researcher who died before finding the answers and never hurt anyone. Number (2) gets to go to heaven.

    Omar Suleiman and Badawi provide equally obtuse and dishonest reasoning.

    If you cut through all the verbiage, Islam teaches that a person who leads a good life but who knowingly rejects Islam goes to hell.

    As stated at the beginning:

    “…. whatever the truth of the sources and creation of the Quran the fact remains it is the most depressing [book]. It is immensely sad that otherwise intelligent, decent, people, can believe it.

    It’s a while since I read it, but what is it, 5%, or 10%, or 20%, or more, that is devoted to saying unbelievers (and God made them that way!) will burn in hell for ever, no matter how good they are, just because they don’t believe?”

  48. Ash says:

    @LIbertyPhile

    Nice try at playing dodge ball, old chap, …. So before I respond to your recent post.

    I suggest you stop playing a game of ringo ringo roses and answer the questions that were asked, if you dont have the capacity to do so then send forth one of your senior Islamaphobes who is capable of doing so….In addition to that.

    Is the following Statement a joke?…”It is remarkable that you don’t quote any internationally recognised Islamic authorities, a Grand Mufti, a Grand Ayatollah, Al-Azhar University, etc., let alone that you don’t give me any Quranic references.”

    Why dont you tell us what the Grand Mufti? Grand ayatollah? and Al-Azhar University have to say about this? I gave you all the clues leading to the exact verse that the ruling is derived from…But your not capable at doing basic research are you.

    But what is clear is that you don’t even know rules of the Ying or the Yang, let alone anything else.

    So answer the questions old chap that were asked….? Or alternatively you could just tell us to why you are terrified of doing so.

  49. LibertyPhile says:

    “Clues leading to the exact verse ….. ” Could that be Quran 3:85?

    “And whoever desires other than Islam as religion – never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.”

    Your questions are largely bluster and don’t have anything to do with question regarding disbelievers and my original criticism of the Quran, though they do reflect your childish attitude to anyone who criticizes Islam.

    Clearly you realise the interpretation you support can be easily challenged. What a religion: a mysterious holy book that depends on humans as to what it means and humans who contradict one another and come up with all sorts of devious double talk.

    • Ash says:

      Libertyphile, My Old Chap, stop dilly dallying, and trying to bluster your way out of answering the questions that have been asked of you…! Yes what i do realise is that your a complete ignoramous. Coming here presenting yourself as some master propagandist and incapable of answering even questions pertaining to Islam.

  50. Omer says:

    Regarding the comment about eternal hell for evil people, this can be explained by the idea that God in His omniscience knows what each of us would do had we lived forever….thus the final abode will reflect that.

    Another point is that it is not altogether clear that there will be eternal punishment…I am not saying that punishment for the evil is not eternal…but just that the Qur’an does not make it completely clear…surprisingly a few verses might suggest otherwise….but these few verses are not enough to give clarity either….their is multiple interpretations of these and other verses dealing with hell’s duration….of course God knows best

    Please see the scholarly book written by Professor Mohammad Hassan Khalil entitled Islam and the Fate of Others.

    Also, I found at interesting article…

    http://quransmessage.com/articles/is%20the%20punishment%20of%20hell%20eternal%20FM3.htm

    Peace to all

  51. LibertyPhile says:

    @Ash

    You don’t have anything to contradict my statements about the Quran’s condemnation of disbelievers, do you!

    Your questions (of the 20 August), of which there are 25 – yes, twenty-five, I’ve numbered them – are largely rhetorical bluster, like shouting loudly to win an argument. I repeat them here:

    @LibertyPhile, My Dear Old Chap, you have been answered more then once, how has that not been answered? [1] What does “Maaliki Yawmid-Deen” mean? [2] Wriggle around what exactly? [3] That there is a Day of Judgement and a Paradise and that there is a hell, and those who have been judged to hell will burn in it for eternity? [4] and your point? [5] The Link I promote shows what exactly? [6] That every individual will be judged, according to there beliefs and their deeds, and with complete and infinite justice? [7] and your objection to this is what, that they should not be judged according to their beliefs, and their deeds and with complete Justice? [8] If you are so obsessed with going to hell, and keep harping on about it, then why would I feel uncomfortable? [9] You repeating the word Nonsense over and over again is an academic argument under what criterion? [10] How many people in the UK and infact around the world had death penalty carried out against them for apostasy during the last year? [11] and in what countries? [12] Your own media is saying that Islam is the fastly growing religion in the west, so are you claiming they are telling fibs? [13] If so why? [14] So there is a Billion dollar, Islamaphobia, industry, and all kinds of individuals are making money from it be it a Quilliam foundation, Libertyphile, Tom Holland, Henry Jackson society, and a Council of ex-members? [15] and your point is what? [16] That they are taking a share of your pie? [17] Why are you saying,… “the CIA and British intelligence have done a brilliant job.” In funding and Creating ISIS and its Cult of Hollywood Jihadis,? [18] Where is your condemnation of CIA and British intelligence? [19] And what is the nature funding received by the Libertyphile website? [20] What are your precise connections to British intelligence? [21] Where are your handlers based, Foreign and commonwealth office? [22] Or the Home office? [23] Since you been asking the questions now its time for you to start answering isn’t it Old chap? [24] By the way how many times have you repeated the word nonsense, in your discussion so far? [25]

    [2] I do know what that means

    [11] Even Muslims (like you, I imagine) are sensitive to the world-wide disgust there would be if someone was actually executed for apostasy but that doesn’t stop Muslim countries and law schools keeping the legislation in place and the implementation of other punishments or the murder of “apostates” by Muslim mobs.

    [13]-[14] Yes, they are “telling fibs” to the extent they don’t tell the complete story.

    [15]-[23] Like so many Muslims you can’t understand that normal, private citizens, decent people, who know about Islam, criticise it. [Probably the great majority in this country.] They see whatever good it contains is overwhelmed by backward beliefs and it is the cause or support of trouble wherever it is practiced.

  52. Ash says:

    @Libertyphile, hold your horses old chap, you will get a comprehensive response over the weekend when I am free, unlike you and your government funded cohorts some of us have to work for a living.
    I would say your response to my questions is Dodge Ball at its finest….!
    in the meantime I suggest you get a bit of practice in and upgrade your skills, go to youtube, and search “Freestyle Rap” or you can come down to Detroit, the local brothers will let you learn and practice “Detroit Freestyle Academics” for free right on the street…Just remember to wear your casuals, Detroits not the place to be wearing them cartier watches and Saville Row Suits.

  53. Ash says:

    Here is where we are at our Dear Old Chum LibertyPhile , has been going round and around in circles for weeks, and failing in his propaganda, displaying his ignorance, filled with nonsense and contradictions.

    So lets analyse some of Libertyphils latest offerings, He stated ………”It is remarkable that you don’t quote any internationally recognised Islamic authorities, a Grand Mufti, a Grand Ayatollah, Al-Azhar University, etc., let alone that you don’t give me any Quranic references.It is remarkable that you don’t quote any internationally recognised Islamic authorities, a Grand Mufti, a Grand Ayatollah, Al-Azhar University, etc., let alone that you don’t give me any Quranic references. Instead you reference little know individuals, of little standing…”

    Strange how Libertyphil has no problem, in championing a complete ignoramous of Zero standing Tom Holland, who is a proven Charlatan and a fraud but when Islamic Scholars of repute, have been quoted by me , he uses the excuse ” Instead you reference little know individuals, of little standing…”

    On top when some very basic questions about Islam are asked of him he does not know here is what I asked him….”In addition to that I got some more questions for you, I am sure you have heard of the five pillars of Islam. (1) So tell me whats the first pillar of Islam? (2) What is the literal translation of the word ‘Islam’? (3) What does the word “Muslim” Mean? (4) What is a Hadith…”

    When asked what does the verse“Maaliki Yawmid-Deen” mean? His response ” I do not know what that means” Well if he does know then why not answer it?

    I asked him a list of pertinent questions, so instead of answering them he decides to play Dodgeball by stating: “Your questions (of the 20 August), of which there are 25 – yes, twenty-five, I’ve numbered them – are largely rhetorical bluster, like shouting loudly to win an argument. I repeat them here:” Now I did not ask him to repeat the questions, I specifically asked him to answer those questions, also strange how such questions are never referred to as bluster, when he and his fellow Islamaphobes in the media use them relentlessly to attack muslims, when the tables are turned they start whinging, like that chap Steve Emerson who called it “waterboarding”, so I am asking questions in accordance with your own rules, so dont blame the player blame the play.

    His latest propaganda, is laughable to say the least, ” Disbelievers will go to hell for simply being disbelievers, despite their good deeds”. Except their is nothing “simply” about it in accordance with his own Bible.

    Firstly, Prisons around the world are filled with individuals who have been sentenced for crimes despite, their good deeds. So according to his logic all those individuals should not have been sentenced in the first place. Lets just look at one example, Rolf Harris, a British/Australian icon who has spent his life doing charitable works, such an icon that the Queen of England hired him to do a personal portrait of her. He committed a crime considered to be so abhorrent, that all his “good deeds” are considered null and void.

    So people will not go to hell for “simply” being disbelievers, they may end up in hell for being ingrates and commiting a crime so abhorrent in the sight of God which is Disbelief, , this is what his own Bible has to say the following is the reason why he has been dodging answering what his number one favourite book of all time has to say:

    King James 2000 Bible
    (For the LORD your God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD your God be kindled against you, and destroy you from off the face of the earth…. Deuteronomy 6:15

    The following is what Deuteronomy 4:23 to 4:25 has to say.

    Warning against Idolatry
    …23″So watch yourselves, that you do not forget the covenant of the LORD your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image in the form of anything against which the LORD your God has commanded you. 24″For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. 25″When you become the father of children and children’s children and have remained long in the land, and act corruptly, and make an idol in the form of anything, and do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD your God so as to provoke Him to anger,…

    So according to his own Bible those who deliberately disbelieve and refuse to submit to God are engaged in a heinous rebellion against God their so-called good deeds in the face of rebellion count for Zilch.

    So Libertyphiles propaganda just got buried by his own Bible and Rolf Harris…. Libertyphil further stated the following… “Like so many Muslims you can’t understand that normal, private citizens, decent people, who know about Islam, criticise it” . Except your not a normal private citizen you are a fully funded establishment Islamaphobe, who wants to do to muslims in Europe, what your predecessors did a few decades ago to the Jews in Europe . The Target may have changed but your objectives clearly remain the same, and the propaganda of villification, demonisation, and dehumanisation is exactly the same except with dawn of the Television, Radio, internet etc., you have more avenues to pursue it ….So what now Old chap back to the Colonial Six point strategy?

  54. LibertyPhile says:

    What a shame! You’ve got nothing new or useful to say about the issue posed; only believers get to go to heaven.

    That is what the Quran clearly says. Muslims who try to qualify this invariably play with words, such as the experts you reference (E.g., yes, an atheist can go to heaven, except he’s not really an atheist, he was still “researching”, trying to make up his mind!)

    All you can do is rant about me.

    If you really believe I’m a paid government agent of some kind you are out of touch with reality.

    The Bible is not my book, but I will say this, I think the “Sermon on the Mount” has more to offer mankind than the whole of the Quran.

    ####

    As you’ve continually gone off topic, I’m going to take a half step in that direction. Just a couple of days ago I came across this superb example of Islamic word play and hair splitting!

    This is a comment by a Muslim on a news report that a fatwa had been issued against the people producing the new Iranian film about the life of Muhammad.

    “…. it is quite clear that Muslim Scholars (Sunni- all the 4 Schools of thoughts) agree and permit photography bcz [sic] its a reflection of things and cannot be treated as skatch [sic] or hand-made poster which is not allowed in Islam. Media is a powerful source of conveying any Message and now it has become a vital part of our society Therefore Raza Academy should reconsider their hasty Fatwa.”

    What on earth is the difference between, say, a highly accurate painting (and just look at the work of some of the masters) or a poor painting for that matter, and a photo of an actor playing Muhammad.

    Perhaps Charlie Hebdo should have used a photo.

    The complete news report is here: http://tribune.com.pk/story/954889/fatwa-issued-against-ar-rahman-for-film-on-prophet-muhammad/

  55. Ash says:

    Interesting our Dear Old chum Libertyphile with nothing left to offer and nowhere else to turn too,
    goes back to…..!

    “So the Dear Old Chap has decided to return to an Old colonial six point strategy.

    1) Make certain claims.
    2) When those claims are answered and refuted, Ignore the answers that have been given.
    3) Repeat the same claims, but make a bold claim that no one is capable of answering you.
    4) When those claims are answered and refuted, again Ignore the answers that have been given.
    5) Repeat the same claims, this time claim that you are being treated unfairly and being victimised, and ridiculed.
    6) When pointed towards answers that have already been given, again completely ignore them, Rinse and Repeat….”

    Coupled that with some irrelevant rant about Paintings and Photographs, as usual totally ignorant as to the Islamic rulings concerning it…!

    “If you really believe I’m a paid government agent of some kind you are out of touch with reality”

    No you wont be for long, after your lack of performance here I think your funding is gonna get cut off,…..So after completely getting owned
    he responds with….”You’ve got nothing new or useful to say about the issue posed; only believers get to go to heaven.That is what the Quran clearly says. Muslims who try to qualify this invariably play with words” ….! So when he gets owned and his propaganda is exposed he says Muslims are playing with words.

    Another claim he says I continually gone of topic, I did not bring ISIS and its cult of Hollywood Jihadis into the discourse you did….And once proven categorically that this ISIS cult was created by Rome and its empire the very same people who are funding him, he suddenly decided to ignore and dodge the issue.

    Then he states….”The Bible is not my book, but I will say this, I think the “Sermon on the Mount” has more to offer mankind than the whole of the Quran.”

    This claim might have merit, if you had actually read the Quran before starting to debate on it…What you proven beyond any shadow of a doubt is your ignorance the fact you never read the Quran..the fact you decided to come and repost some propoganda, from Islamaphobe websites. Got exposed.

    Embarrassingly so…”On top when some very basic questions about Islam are asked of him he does not know here is what I asked him….”In addition to that I got some more questions for you, I am sure you have heard of the five pillars of Islam. (1) So tell me whats the first pillar of Islam? (2) What is the literal translation of the word ‘Islam’? (3) What does the word “Muslim” Mean? (4) What is a Hadith…”When asked what does the verse“Maaliki Yawmid-Deen” mean? His response ” I do not know what that means” Well if he does know then why not answer it?”

    The reality is that you thought that by using Pretentious tone and language, you might be able to bluster people into thinking your knowledgable well its worked for you so far, until I turned up.. , I am not gonna knock you for it after all a kid from the East end, called Mehboob, used the same strategy to become a millionaire..He just called himself “Ed”, took diction lessons so he can speak in a snooty accent, and wrote a highly fictionalised Memoir, and the Morons have bought it hook line and sinker.

    So My Dear Old chap, stop trying to bluff and bluster, but some hard work and study time in, so you can come and debate from a position of knowledge…order your free copy here.. http://quranproject.org/freequran.php

    Lets be straight about this your whole and entire objective over the last few weeks has been to try and make propaganda and prevent people from reading the Quran… So the question for you is has the number of people ordering the Quran increased decreased or remained the same.
    And did the number of people watching the video https://youtu.be/VOtNkDLnumE by Arnoud Van Dorn.. increased, decreased or has it remained the same…! You have failed massively.

    Shaykh Saadi Shirazi…”Nothing is so good for an ignorant man as silence; and if he was sensible of this he would not be ignorant.”

  56. LibertyPhile says:

    The only comment I made in my previous post that you don’t pick on is “All you can do is rant about me.”

    I think that’s because even you know it’s true!!

    You really do have a problem. I have read the Quran. Your miscellaneous questions about Islam (to which I do know the answers) are irrelevant.

    You boast of the effect you are having but in this comment thread there is a remarkable absence of support for your views. No one has come forward with a clear Quranic reference or an unambiguous statement (i.e., no contradictory qualifications or hair splitting) by an internationally recognised Islamic authority, to support them.

    Perhaps all those people taking up your offer of a free Quran, haven’t read it yet.

    I’m happy for people to read the Quran. The great majority will come to the same conclusions as I have. It is largely nonsense and what it says about the fate of disbelievers shows Islam is a religion based on fear.

  57. Ash says:

    How interesting my Dear Old Fellow, your above rant is a fine example of how did you put it…. “(at least 90% insults, embellishment, misconstruction, and gross repetition)”.

    Better luck next time.

  58. LibertyPhile says:

    @Ash

    This week’s Jesus and Mo. It’s nothing to do with me, honest! It must be some other government agent! Or perhaps they have been reading this thread.

    http://www.jesusandmo.net/2015/09/16/gulf/

  59. Ash says:

    Yo inayat How comments getting blocked

  60. Ash says:

    Inayat please explain, why my comments are blocked?

  61. Ash says:

    Nice try Old Chap, having blatantly gotten whooped here and unable to fight your own corner,now you have to commision your Islamaphobe contacts to draw cartoons for you, I find that quite flattering, ….As for your Islamaphobe cartoon friends seems as usual they got their co-ordinates wrong clearly they gotten their Hebrew mixed up with Arabic like your cousins in Gardiner Indiana in the video below, who became alarmed at seeing a sign in “Arabic” and called the Sheriffs dept, and the Media https://youtu.be/j6cmFoW0Lf0

    By the way be careful very careful Ahmeds Got A clock…… https://youtu.be/20Zzyf67e7Q

    Frankly I am getting bored your not much of contest you ever watch the 1980’s classic movie “Trading Places” so how about we Trade Places, I will pretend to be you,……. On second thoughts your not going to be much of a contest in the opposite corner either so we will end up back where we started…!

    You should have taken advice when it was given I stated….”As for what a non-muslim like you should do. Well as a anti-Islam propagandist and someone who has a website dedicated to the cause. your clearly not very good at your job, so perhaps you would be better served by resigning your present position, and joining the likes of Maajid Nawaaz and other losers at the Quilliam Foundation.”

    At this rate you will struggle to get a job at The Quilliam Foundation as well… Not to worry Maybe you can attend Kindergarten and learn to draw Cartoons, you might be able to salvage a living out of it…!

    Thats what we call a Detroit Check Hook, counter…! Congratulations your Score just went down to Minus Zero.

    Better luck next time.

    So what now is it back to the colonial six point strategy.

  62. LibertyPhile says:

    Well, that’s one way to avoid admitting you’ve lost the argument; spew out words and denigrate your opponent as much as possible.

    The Quran says and Islam teaches only believers can get to heaven. The Quran is largely nonsense and what it says about the fate of disbelievers shows Islam is a religion based on fear.

    Nobody over the near 70 comments and two months has offered anything to support your denial of this.

  63. Ash says:

    My Dear Old Chap on the contrary, thats one way to avoid admitting that your arguments have been clinically, thoroughly, incontrovertibly, been countered at every step…Not a very clever way either considering every body who visits will be able to read what has already been posted.

    You have been exposed as nothing but a hatefilled establishment. funded, Islamaphobe, whose only purpose and objective for the last seventy or so comments, has been to propogate hatred….Whilst at the same time dodging every question that was put to you.

    As for me denigrating you, no you have denigrated yourself…!

    In America there was a crude expression that originated in the 1970’s called “Punk Ass”, the origins of this word lies in the School System of that time. In the School system bullying was rife,…So in a school you may have had an individual who was being bullied by a gang of bullies every day, And occasionally you would get a spectator who rather then helping the bullied individual , would seek to ingratiate himself with the bullies, and get a few kicks in of his own, the expression used for such an individual was a “Punk Ass” coward.

    So how does that relate to this, well we have Muslims being villified, demonised and dehumanised on a daily basis, even the media themselves admit they would not publish such articles about anything other group,that muslims are open season….So we have “Punk ass” professional, Islamaphobes, individuals with little talent to establish any other line of career jump into the fray, so they can hustle some dollars out of the billion dollar Islamaphobe industry, then you have “Punk Ass” Journalists who have a deadline to fill, so make some easy bucks by writing Islamaphobic articles, then we have the “Punk ass” politicians who realise that making anti-muslim statements is a good political tactic, thats alot of “punk asses” out there … . The same kind of punk asses that were villifying Jews a hundred or so years ago. Unfortunately for them the internet is the equaliser, were the voiceless have a voice and the punk asses get exposed.

    My Dear Old Thing, we dont begrudge, you a career..! But atleast have the nerve to acknowledge what you represent, instead of rather clumsily trying to present yourself as some sort of expert, and academic of which you are neither.

    Back to the Colonial Six point?

  64. LibertyPhile says:

    There are two topics here.

    (1) Your dislike and criticism of me because of my website LibertyPhile, which is what seems to be driving your flood of words here. Well, that’s fine you are entitled to your opinion. I think you’re out of touch with reality, but that’s by the way.

    (2) My assertion that the Quran says only believers can get to heaven. Those who have been given the message but don’t believe, no matter how good they are in life and with their fellow human beings, will suffer in hell for eternity.

    Now this is an important matter.

    You responded saying in so many words it’s not true and quoted three sources giving links. I have looked at all of them. The best and representative quote from your sources can be summed up as follows: “Yes, atheists can go to heaven, as long as they are not really atheists”.

    It’s playing with words, splitting hairs.

    Do you have any unambiguous, clear, authoritative sources for your opinion? Is anybody reading this going to support you?

    Just for once, stick to topic (2)

  65. Ash says:

    Our Dear Old Chap has decided to return to the Colonial Six point…Now commonsense dictates that once your agenda has been exposed, and your strategy has been pointed out. Not to return to it, at least try to be a bit original, instead of trying to split hairs, these are the basic rules of prizefighting.

    Little Old Miss Marple, is one of the great creations of Agatha Christie…! Miss Marple had the ability, the ability to solve the most complex of crimes, her main asset was her understanding of human behaviour, Miss Marple was a Forensic Psychologist before the science of forensic was even invented. She could tell the snooty guy, sitting in a boardroom, was cunning and devious, because he bore striking similarities and had a similar psychological profile to the cunning and devious Chap working at her local butchers.

    How does this correspond here, well our Dear Old Chap, is trying to use a strategy employed,
    by Loan Sharks across the inner-cities of America. No matter what action the individual who has borrowed from them takes as to avoid the exorbitant interest and fulfill the conditions, they will reject it, ” If you fulfill these condition no interest to pay” So the poor Old victims are made to run around on a wild goose chase, not realising they are being hustled, the loan shark is gonna use what is known as “the colonial six point”, to reject and ignore whatever conditions they fulfilled.

    So Our Dear Old Chap, is playing the Detroit Loan Shark, by using the colonial six point except his chosen run brother to try and hustle…! So if we ruffly tranlate what he is saying is that no, matter you say or what evidence you bring I am a Professional Hate filled Islamaphobe, and I am going to use the Colonial Six Point.

    On Top of that he claims my focus is on him, and he is absolutely correct, when an individual presents himself in a Court of Law as an “expert witness”, the court has an obligation to examine his qualifications, credentials and his agenda, and if he is proven to be a fraud and a prejudicial and a hostile witness his testimony is rejected and treated with contempt as it should be. The Credentials of our Dear Old Chap are there for all to see and they cannot be separated from his testimony,he is a Professional Islamaphobe. Try as he might that cannot be ignored, you cant write point one and point two then state rather subtly that you should ignore that I am an Islamaphobe and just answer question number (2)

    Whats more if a case goes to court the onus is on the Accuser to produce his evidence, and not the accused.You dont put someone in a court of Law and then say ” My Dear Old fellow My assertion is that you are a murderer but I want you to produce witnesses and evidences to prove that you are not, on top of that I will reject the witnesses you produce only witnesses you can produce are the ones that meet my approval. Besides that I will play Dodgeball and avoid every question you ask, and dismiss it as being irrelevant.

    So the onus is on Our Dear Colonel to produce some sound scholarship.

    What do the Mufassireen say on the Issue of the Day of Judgement? What do the Books of Tafseer say on the Day Judgement? How will a persons deeds be judged? What is a criteria for a good deed? is a good deed something that Rupert Murdoch calls a Good Deed? If an individual gives a Million to charity is that a good deed? What if the guy gave a million pounds to charity, because his Public relations, and marketing teams advised him it would be good for business, is that still a good deed? What is a Good person is it someone who the western media tell us is a good person? What if the Media changes its mind declares that individual to suddenly be a bad person? Like that Jimmy Saville Chap. Whats a bad deed? If one man kills his neighbour is that a bad deed? What if the had neighbour raped his daughter? If our Dear Old Chap was sincere then he would come here with answer to all these questions, but his agenda is “I hate Islam and Muslims”..”

    Note also the word play and how the insertions or assertions our dear old chap makes keep changing, Intially his insertion was that God compelled people to be disbelievers and he is going to send them to hell for it,….Then his objection was that all non-muslims will go to hell regardless of whether they had received the message or not, once that got refuted, now his absurdtion is that those who received the message in its unadulterated form and deliberately reject it and according to his Bible are in direct rebellion to God will go to Hell, and whats more according to his Bible God has full knowledge of his creation, and he knows full well what a Good person is, and what a Good deed is, and how to judge it…Thats why their is day of Judgement.

    The intelligent Question for our Dear Old Chap to consider is that were will his personal direction direction take him, will he be with the Ranks of Pharoah and his followers and those who follow their example or amongst the ranks of Moses (Peace and Blessings be upon him) and his followers…Whats your copy of Werner and Keller your favourite book of all time say ….Go and chew that.

  66. LibertyPhile says:

    You write (at great length, repeating yourself) that what I say about Islam is wrong because (you think) I am motivated by hatred and I’m ignorant. [This was also the nature of your response on Tom Holland at the beginning of this thread.]

    My motives and knowledge have nothing at all to do with the accuracy or otherwise of the statement that the Quran says and Islam teaches only believers can get to heaven. Those who have been given the message but don’t believe, no matter how good they are in life, will suffer in hell for eternity.

    I can understand many Muslims are uncomfortable with this – at least, now in modern times – and wriggle like mad, like you are wriggling, to avoid the ugly truth, like the “scholar” in the video link you gave who said in so many words, “Yes, atheists can get to heaven as long as they are not really atheists”. (You do know what’s wrong with that statement, don’t you?)

    Now you’ve come up with “What do the Mufassireen say on the Issue of the Day of Judgement? What do the Books of Tafseer say on the Day Judgement?”

    Yes indeed, what do they say? Why can’t you give a clear, rational, unambiguous quote?

    ==

    Please note the Bible is not my book. My admiration for Keller’s “The Bible as History” is to do with the effort made to establish if there was any truth, however distorted, behind various biblical stories.

  67. Ash says:

    My Dear Old Chap, only wriggling going on is with you, so how many questions have you dodged So far? 40? 50? with every question your lack of knowledge or rather more ignorance becomes more obvious.

    The only discomfort is yours, you been hammered by everyone from the Damsel in distress, to Dennis Weaver , Rolf Harris, Rumi, and Sun Tzu…! So why keep repeating the same nonsense when it has not given you much success, in the last three months.

    Your post is a classic example… “(at least 90% insults, embellishment, misconstruction, and gross repetition)”. Or as the Australians say an Emu burying its head in the sand, You just chose the wrong Brother to engage in Detroit Freestyle academics with.

    So now what Our Dear Old Colonel is saying is…”My motives and knowledge have nothing at all to do with the accuracy or otherwise of the statement..” So ignore the fact that he is ignorant, and we should also ignore the fact that he is an Islamaphobe, but despite his ignorance we should still accept his statements to be true….Has the Daily Mail have a vacancy for a new Editor?

    “If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you are a fool you will succumb in every battle.”
    – Sun Tzu

  68. LibertyPhile says:

    Interesting technique that! You don’t know what to say so you resort to complete gibberish.

  69. Ash says:

    I think your recent comment is what is referred to as a “Freudian slip”, and I fully agree with your subconcious mind, your arguments have indeed been gibberish.

    “The opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.”
    Sun Tzu

  70. LibertyPhile says:

    Talking of Freud, he would be interested in your case. You don’t argue, you just boast how smart you are and how stupid or wicked your opponent is.

    After all this time you still haven’t managed to say anything to contradict my statement the Quran says and Islam teaches only believers can get to heaven. Those who have been given the message but don’t believe, no matter how good they are go to hell.

    Islam is based on fear.

  71. Ash says:

    My Dear Old Old Chum, I think it goes without saying, that for someone to keep using the Colonial Six Point even after getting called on it cannot be termed as being very smart frankly just plain Laziness..!

    The Colonial Six Point:

    1) Make certain claims.
    2) When those claims are answered and refuted, Ignore the answers that have been given.
    3) Repeat the same claims, but make a bold claim that no one is capable of answering you.
    4) When those claims are answered and refuted, again Ignore the answers that have been given.
    5) Repeat the same claims, this time claim that you are being treated unfairly and being victimised, and ridiculed.
    6) When pointed towards answers that have already been given, again completely ignore them, Rinse and Repeat.

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