The Qur’an Strikes Back

Ta-Ha

The BBC this week reported that what are believed to be amongst the earliest ever fragments of the Qur’an have been found at Birmingham University. The fragments have been carbon dated with a 95% probability to the period 568 to 645 CE ie. to a period that very closely corresponds to the time (610 – 632 CE) when the traditional Muslim narrative maintains that the Prophet Muhammad received the revelation of the Qur’an. This means, as Professor David Thomas of Birmingham University has observed:

“The person who actually wrote it could well have known the Prophet Muhammad. He would have seen him probably, he would maybe have heard him preach. He may have known him personally – and that really is quite a thought to conjure with.”

So, for Muslims, this finding will be received with immense joy as it confirms their belief in the historicity of the Qur’an and the manner of its compilation and preservation. But, what does this finding mean for Western scholarship about the Qur’an?

Back in the late 1970’s, Patricia Crone and Michael Cook (who both went on to occupy prestigious roles at Princeton University) published a book called Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World, which called for a radical revision of the traditional Muslim narrative and insisted that the Qur’an took shape in the 8th century to fulfil a need of the growing Arab empire. The authors claimed at the time that “…There is no hard evidence for the existence of the Koran in any form before the last decade of the seventh century…”

Well, as it happens, Crone (who passed away earlier this month) later changed her mind about this as evidence began to accrue that supported the Muslim narrative, but the revisionists’ influence continues to be felt.

Three years ago, the British writer and historian, Tom Holland, published In The Shadow of the Sword which I reviewed here on this blog at the time. Holland argued that much of the Muslim narrative about the history of Islam was unreliable and that Islam as we now know it was largely shaped by the Arab Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan. Holland added that the true location of the Prophet’s initial preaching was not the Makka that we know today, but much further north on the border with Palestine.

Accompanying the publication of his book, Tom Holland also presented a Channel Four documentary called “Islam the Untold Story” in which he outlined his case. But let’s return to his book for the moment. Holland’s book started off by posing some big questions.

“…how can we know for sure that the Qur’an dates from the time of Muhammad? How can we know who compiled it, from what sources, for what motives? Can we even be sure that its origins lay in Arabia? In short, do we really know anything at all about the birth of Islam?” (p43)

“Does the Qur’an really date from the Prophet’s lifetime? Where, if not in Mecca, might he have lived? Why are the references to him in the early Caliphate so sparse, so enigmatic, and so late?” (p55)

As I said at the time, you could have been forgiven for thinking that Holland had uncovered something shocking about the Qur’an. It was only over 300 pages into his book that you found out Holland’s actual conclusion about the Qur’an:

“The text of the Qur’an itself does seem to derive authentically from the Prophet’s lifetime…it is true, the Qur’an records a very specific moment in history: a moment that internal evidence, as well as tradition, identifies with the early decades of the seventh Christian century.” (p310-315)

So, after that intriguing build up, we were told that the Muslim narrative about the history of the Qur’an was accurate.

Interestingly, Tom Holland did not mention this rather vital fact in his C4 documentary. Why not? This was surely important and relevant in a documentary seeking to look at the historical foundations of Islam? In a Twitter exchange I had with Tom earlier this week, he said it was not necessary to explicitly mention that modern evidence supports the traditional Muslim narrative about the historicity of the Qur’an because his documentary simply assumed the Muslim dating of the Qur’an was correct.

Personally, I can’t help but feel that the more likely reason Holland did not mention this was because it would have severely undermined his entire thesis for the C4 documentary.

Still, let us let bygones be bygones. Looking forward, British Muslims have cause to be grateful that these latest Qur’an fragments have been found in the UK. They will be placed on public display initially at the Barber Institute in Birmingham in just over two months time. I can’t wait to go and see them.

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77 Responses to The Qur’an Strikes Back

  1. LibertyPhile says:

    @Ash

    You don’t have anything to contradict my statements about the Quran’s condemnation of disbelievers, do you!

    Your questions (of the 20 August), of which there are 25 – yes, twenty-five, I’ve numbered them – are largely rhetorical bluster, like shouting loudly to win an argument. I repeat them here:

    @LibertyPhile, My Dear Old Chap, you have been answered more then once, how has that not been answered? [1] What does “Maaliki Yawmid-Deen” mean? [2] Wriggle around what exactly? [3] That there is a Day of Judgement and a Paradise and that there is a hell, and those who have been judged to hell will burn in it for eternity? [4] and your point? [5] The Link I promote shows what exactly? [6] That every individual will be judged, according to there beliefs and their deeds, and with complete and infinite justice? [7] and your objection to this is what, that they should not be judged according to their beliefs, and their deeds and with complete Justice? [8] If you are so obsessed with going to hell, and keep harping on about it, then why would I feel uncomfortable? [9] You repeating the word Nonsense over and over again is an academic argument under what criterion? [10] How many people in the UK and infact around the world had death penalty carried out against them for apostasy during the last year? [11] and in what countries? [12] Your own media is saying that Islam is the fastly growing religion in the west, so are you claiming they are telling fibs? [13] If so why? [14] So there is a Billion dollar, Islamaphobia, industry, and all kinds of individuals are making money from it be it a Quilliam foundation, Libertyphile, Tom Holland, Henry Jackson society, and a Council of ex-members? [15] and your point is what? [16] That they are taking a share of your pie? [17] Why are you saying,… “the CIA and British intelligence have done a brilliant job.” In funding and Creating ISIS and its Cult of Hollywood Jihadis,? [18] Where is your condemnation of CIA and British intelligence? [19] And what is the nature funding received by the Libertyphile website? [20] What are your precise connections to British intelligence? [21] Where are your handlers based, Foreign and commonwealth office? [22] Or the Home office? [23] Since you been asking the questions now its time for you to start answering isn’t it Old chap? [24] By the way how many times have you repeated the word nonsense, in your discussion so far? [25]

    [2] I do know what that means

    [11] Even Muslims (like you, I imagine) are sensitive to the world-wide disgust there would be if someone was actually executed for apostasy but that doesn’t stop Muslim countries and law schools keeping the legislation in place and the implementation of other punishments or the murder of “apostates” by Muslim mobs.

    [13]-[14] Yes, they are “telling fibs” to the extent they don’t tell the complete story.

    [15]-[23] Like so many Muslims you can’t understand that normal, private citizens, decent people, who know about Islam, criticise it. [Probably the great majority in this country.] They see whatever good it contains is overwhelmed by backward beliefs and it is the cause or support of trouble wherever it is practiced.

  2. Ash says:

    @Libertyphile, hold your horses old chap, you will get a comprehensive response over the weekend when I am free, unlike you and your government funded cohorts some of us have to work for a living.
    I would say your response to my questions is Dodge Ball at its finest….!
    in the meantime I suggest you get a bit of practice in and upgrade your skills, go to youtube, and search “Freestyle Rap” or you can come down to Detroit, the local brothers will let you learn and practice “Detroit Freestyle Academics” for free right on the street…Just remember to wear your casuals, Detroits not the place to be wearing them cartier watches and Saville Row Suits.

  3. Ash says:

    Here is where we are at our Dear Old Chum LibertyPhile , has been going round and around in circles for weeks, and failing in his propaganda, displaying his ignorance, filled with nonsense and contradictions.

    So lets analyse some of Libertyphils latest offerings, He stated ………”It is remarkable that you don’t quote any internationally recognised Islamic authorities, a Grand Mufti, a Grand Ayatollah, Al-Azhar University, etc., let alone that you don’t give me any Quranic references.It is remarkable that you don’t quote any internationally recognised Islamic authorities, a Grand Mufti, a Grand Ayatollah, Al-Azhar University, etc., let alone that you don’t give me any Quranic references. Instead you reference little know individuals, of little standing…”

    Strange how Libertyphil has no problem, in championing a complete ignoramous of Zero standing Tom Holland, who is a proven Charlatan and a fraud but when Islamic Scholars of repute, have been quoted by me , he uses the excuse ” Instead you reference little know individuals, of little standing…”

    On top when some very basic questions about Islam are asked of him he does not know here is what I asked him….”In addition to that I got some more questions for you, I am sure you have heard of the five pillars of Islam. (1) So tell me whats the first pillar of Islam? (2) What is the literal translation of the word ‘Islam’? (3) What does the word “Muslim” Mean? (4) What is a Hadith…”

    When asked what does the verse“Maaliki Yawmid-Deen” mean? His response ” I do not know what that means” Well if he does know then why not answer it?

    I asked him a list of pertinent questions, so instead of answering them he decides to play Dodgeball by stating: “Your questions (of the 20 August), of which there are 25 – yes, twenty-five, I’ve numbered them – are largely rhetorical bluster, like shouting loudly to win an argument. I repeat them here:” Now I did not ask him to repeat the questions, I specifically asked him to answer those questions, also strange how such questions are never referred to as bluster, when he and his fellow Islamaphobes in the media use them relentlessly to attack muslims, when the tables are turned they start whinging, like that chap Steve Emerson who called it “waterboarding”, so I am asking questions in accordance with your own rules, so dont blame the player blame the play.

    His latest propaganda, is laughable to say the least, ” Disbelievers will go to hell for simply being disbelievers, despite their good deeds”. Except their is nothing “simply” about it in accordance with his own Bible.

    Firstly, Prisons around the world are filled with individuals who have been sentenced for crimes despite, their good deeds. So according to his logic all those individuals should not have been sentenced in the first place. Lets just look at one example, Rolf Harris, a British/Australian icon who has spent his life doing charitable works, such an icon that the Queen of England hired him to do a personal portrait of her. He committed a crime considered to be so abhorrent, that all his “good deeds” are considered null and void.

    So people will not go to hell for “simply” being disbelievers, they may end up in hell for being ingrates and commiting a crime so abhorrent in the sight of God which is Disbelief, , this is what his own Bible has to say the following is the reason why he has been dodging answering what his number one favourite book of all time has to say:

    King James 2000 Bible
    (For the LORD your God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD your God be kindled against you, and destroy you from off the face of the earth…. Deuteronomy 6:15

    The following is what Deuteronomy 4:23 to 4:25 has to say.

    Warning against Idolatry
    …23″So watch yourselves, that you do not forget the covenant of the LORD your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image in the form of anything against which the LORD your God has commanded you. 24″For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. 25″When you become the father of children and children’s children and have remained long in the land, and act corruptly, and make an idol in the form of anything, and do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD your God so as to provoke Him to anger,…

    So according to his own Bible those who deliberately disbelieve and refuse to submit to God are engaged in a heinous rebellion against God their so-called good deeds in the face of rebellion count for Zilch.

    So Libertyphiles propaganda just got buried by his own Bible and Rolf Harris…. Libertyphil further stated the following… “Like so many Muslims you can’t understand that normal, private citizens, decent people, who know about Islam, criticise it” . Except your not a normal private citizen you are a fully funded establishment Islamaphobe, who wants to do to muslims in Europe, what your predecessors did a few decades ago to the Jews in Europe . The Target may have changed but your objectives clearly remain the same, and the propaganda of villification, demonisation, and dehumanisation is exactly the same except with dawn of the Television, Radio, internet etc., you have more avenues to pursue it ….So what now Old chap back to the Colonial Six point strategy?

  4. LibertyPhile says:

    What a shame! You’ve got nothing new or useful to say about the issue posed; only believers get to go to heaven.

    That is what the Quran clearly says. Muslims who try to qualify this invariably play with words, such as the experts you reference (E.g., yes, an atheist can go to heaven, except he’s not really an atheist, he was still “researching”, trying to make up his mind!)

    All you can do is rant about me.

    If you really believe I’m a paid government agent of some kind you are out of touch with reality.

    The Bible is not my book, but I will say this, I think the “Sermon on the Mount” has more to offer mankind than the whole of the Quran.

    ####

    As you’ve continually gone off topic, I’m going to take a half step in that direction. Just a couple of days ago I came across this superb example of Islamic word play and hair splitting!

    This is a comment by a Muslim on a news report that a fatwa had been issued against the people producing the new Iranian film about the life of Muhammad.

    “…. it is quite clear that Muslim Scholars (Sunni- all the 4 Schools of thoughts) agree and permit photography bcz [sic] its a reflection of things and cannot be treated as skatch [sic] or hand-made poster which is not allowed in Islam. Media is a powerful source of conveying any Message and now it has become a vital part of our society Therefore Raza Academy should reconsider their hasty Fatwa.”

    What on earth is the difference between, say, a highly accurate painting (and just look at the work of some of the masters) or a poor painting for that matter, and a photo of an actor playing Muhammad.

    Perhaps Charlie Hebdo should have used a photo.

    The complete news report is here: http://tribune.com.pk/story/954889/fatwa-issued-against-ar-rahman-for-film-on-prophet-muhammad/

  5. Ash says:

    Interesting our Dear Old chum Libertyphile with nothing left to offer and nowhere else to turn too,
    goes back to…..!

    “So the Dear Old Chap has decided to return to an Old colonial six point strategy.

    1) Make certain claims.
    2) When those claims are answered and refuted, Ignore the answers that have been given.
    3) Repeat the same claims, but make a bold claim that no one is capable of answering you.
    4) When those claims are answered and refuted, again Ignore the answers that have been given.
    5) Repeat the same claims, this time claim that you are being treated unfairly and being victimised, and ridiculed.
    6) When pointed towards answers that have already been given, again completely ignore them, Rinse and Repeat….”

    Coupled that with some irrelevant rant about Paintings and Photographs, as usual totally ignorant as to the Islamic rulings concerning it…!

    “If you really believe I’m a paid government agent of some kind you are out of touch with reality”

    No you wont be for long, after your lack of performance here I think your funding is gonna get cut off,…..So after completely getting owned
    he responds with….”You’ve got nothing new or useful to say about the issue posed; only believers get to go to heaven.That is what the Quran clearly says. Muslims who try to qualify this invariably play with words” ….! So when he gets owned and his propaganda is exposed he says Muslims are playing with words.

    Another claim he says I continually gone of topic, I did not bring ISIS and its cult of Hollywood Jihadis into the discourse you did….And once proven categorically that this ISIS cult was created by Rome and its empire the very same people who are funding him, he suddenly decided to ignore and dodge the issue.

    Then he states….”The Bible is not my book, but I will say this, I think the “Sermon on the Mount” has more to offer mankind than the whole of the Quran.”

    This claim might have merit, if you had actually read the Quran before starting to debate on it…What you proven beyond any shadow of a doubt is your ignorance the fact you never read the Quran..the fact you decided to come and repost some propoganda, from Islamaphobe websites. Got exposed.

    Embarrassingly so…”On top when some very basic questions about Islam are asked of him he does not know here is what I asked him….”In addition to that I got some more questions for you, I am sure you have heard of the five pillars of Islam. (1) So tell me whats the first pillar of Islam? (2) What is the literal translation of the word ‘Islam’? (3) What does the word “Muslim” Mean? (4) What is a Hadith…”When asked what does the verse“Maaliki Yawmid-Deen” mean? His response ” I do not know what that means” Well if he does know then why not answer it?”

    The reality is that you thought that by using Pretentious tone and language, you might be able to bluster people into thinking your knowledgable well its worked for you so far, until I turned up.. , I am not gonna knock you for it after all a kid from the East end, called Mehboob, used the same strategy to become a millionaire..He just called himself “Ed”, took diction lessons so he can speak in a snooty accent, and wrote a highly fictionalised Memoir, and the Morons have bought it hook line and sinker.

    So My Dear Old chap, stop trying to bluff and bluster, but some hard work and study time in, so you can come and debate from a position of knowledge…order your free copy here.. http://quranproject.org/freequran.php

    Lets be straight about this your whole and entire objective over the last few weeks has been to try and make propaganda and prevent people from reading the Quran… So the question for you is has the number of people ordering the Quran increased decreased or remained the same.
    And did the number of people watching the video https://youtu.be/VOtNkDLnumE by Arnoud Van Dorn.. increased, decreased or has it remained the same…! You have failed massively.

    Shaykh Saadi Shirazi…”Nothing is so good for an ignorant man as silence; and if he was sensible of this he would not be ignorant.”

  6. LibertyPhile says:

    The only comment I made in my previous post that you don’t pick on is “All you can do is rant about me.”

    I think that’s because even you know it’s true!!

    You really do have a problem. I have read the Quran. Your miscellaneous questions about Islam (to which I do know the answers) are irrelevant.

    You boast of the effect you are having but in this comment thread there is a remarkable absence of support for your views. No one has come forward with a clear Quranic reference or an unambiguous statement (i.e., no contradictory qualifications or hair splitting) by an internationally recognised Islamic authority, to support them.

    Perhaps all those people taking up your offer of a free Quran, haven’t read it yet.

    I’m happy for people to read the Quran. The great majority will come to the same conclusions as I have. It is largely nonsense and what it says about the fate of disbelievers shows Islam is a religion based on fear.

  7. Ash says:

    How interesting my Dear Old Fellow, your above rant is a fine example of how did you put it…. “(at least 90% insults, embellishment, misconstruction, and gross repetition)”.

    Better luck next time.

  8. LibertyPhile says:

    @Ash

    This week’s Jesus and Mo. It’s nothing to do with me, honest! It must be some other government agent! Or perhaps they have been reading this thread.

    http://www.jesusandmo.net/2015/09/16/gulf/

  9. Ash says:

    Yo inayat How comments getting blocked

  10. Ash says:

    Inayat please explain, why my comments are blocked?

  11. Ash says:

    Nice try Old Chap, having blatantly gotten whooped here and unable to fight your own corner,now you have to commision your Islamaphobe contacts to draw cartoons for you, I find that quite flattering, ….As for your Islamaphobe cartoon friends seems as usual they got their co-ordinates wrong clearly they gotten their Hebrew mixed up with Arabic like your cousins in Gardiner Indiana in the video below, who became alarmed at seeing a sign in “Arabic” and called the Sheriffs dept, and the Media https://youtu.be/j6cmFoW0Lf0

    By the way be careful very careful Ahmeds Got A clock…… https://youtu.be/20Zzyf67e7Q

    Frankly I am getting bored your not much of contest you ever watch the 1980’s classic movie “Trading Places” so how about we Trade Places, I will pretend to be you,……. On second thoughts your not going to be much of a contest in the opposite corner either so we will end up back where we started…!

    You should have taken advice when it was given I stated….”As for what a non-muslim like you should do. Well as a anti-Islam propagandist and someone who has a website dedicated to the cause. your clearly not very good at your job, so perhaps you would be better served by resigning your present position, and joining the likes of Maajid Nawaaz and other losers at the Quilliam Foundation.”

    At this rate you will struggle to get a job at The Quilliam Foundation as well… Not to worry Maybe you can attend Kindergarten and learn to draw Cartoons, you might be able to salvage a living out of it…!

    Thats what we call a Detroit Check Hook, counter…! Congratulations your Score just went down to Minus Zero.

    Better luck next time.

    So what now is it back to the colonial six point strategy.

  12. LibertyPhile says:

    Well, that’s one way to avoid admitting you’ve lost the argument; spew out words and denigrate your opponent as much as possible.

    The Quran says and Islam teaches only believers can get to heaven. The Quran is largely nonsense and what it says about the fate of disbelievers shows Islam is a religion based on fear.

    Nobody over the near 70 comments and two months has offered anything to support your denial of this.

  13. Ash says:

    My Dear Old Chap on the contrary, thats one way to avoid admitting that your arguments have been clinically, thoroughly, incontrovertibly, been countered at every step…Not a very clever way either considering every body who visits will be able to read what has already been posted.

    You have been exposed as nothing but a hatefilled establishment. funded, Islamaphobe, whose only purpose and objective for the last seventy or so comments, has been to propogate hatred….Whilst at the same time dodging every question that was put to you.

    As for me denigrating you, no you have denigrated yourself…!

    In America there was a crude expression that originated in the 1970’s called “Punk Ass”, the origins of this word lies in the School System of that time. In the School system bullying was rife,…So in a school you may have had an individual who was being bullied by a gang of bullies every day, And occasionally you would get a spectator who rather then helping the bullied individual , would seek to ingratiate himself with the bullies, and get a few kicks in of his own, the expression used for such an individual was a “Punk Ass” coward.

    So how does that relate to this, well we have Muslims being villified, demonised and dehumanised on a daily basis, even the media themselves admit they would not publish such articles about anything other group,that muslims are open season….So we have “Punk ass” professional, Islamaphobes, individuals with little talent to establish any other line of career jump into the fray, so they can hustle some dollars out of the billion dollar Islamaphobe industry, then you have “Punk Ass” Journalists who have a deadline to fill, so make some easy bucks by writing Islamaphobic articles, then we have the “Punk ass” politicians who realise that making anti-muslim statements is a good political tactic, thats alot of “punk asses” out there … . The same kind of punk asses that were villifying Jews a hundred or so years ago. Unfortunately for them the internet is the equaliser, were the voiceless have a voice and the punk asses get exposed.

    My Dear Old Thing, we dont begrudge, you a career..! But atleast have the nerve to acknowledge what you represent, instead of rather clumsily trying to present yourself as some sort of expert, and academic of which you are neither.

    Back to the Colonial Six point?

  14. LibertyPhile says:

    There are two topics here.

    (1) Your dislike and criticism of me because of my website LibertyPhile, which is what seems to be driving your flood of words here. Well, that’s fine you are entitled to your opinion. I think you’re out of touch with reality, but that’s by the way.

    (2) My assertion that the Quran says only believers can get to heaven. Those who have been given the message but don’t believe, no matter how good they are in life and with their fellow human beings, will suffer in hell for eternity.

    Now this is an important matter.

    You responded saying in so many words it’s not true and quoted three sources giving links. I have looked at all of them. The best and representative quote from your sources can be summed up as follows: “Yes, atheists can go to heaven, as long as they are not really atheists”.

    It’s playing with words, splitting hairs.

    Do you have any unambiguous, clear, authoritative sources for your opinion? Is anybody reading this going to support you?

    Just for once, stick to topic (2)

  15. Ash says:

    Our Dear Old Chap has decided to return to the Colonial Six point…Now commonsense dictates that once your agenda has been exposed, and your strategy has been pointed out. Not to return to it, at least try to be a bit original, instead of trying to split hairs, these are the basic rules of prizefighting.

    Little Old Miss Marple, is one of the great creations of Agatha Christie…! Miss Marple had the ability, the ability to solve the most complex of crimes, her main asset was her understanding of human behaviour, Miss Marple was a Forensic Psychologist before the science of forensic was even invented. She could tell the snooty guy, sitting in a boardroom, was cunning and devious, because he bore striking similarities and had a similar psychological profile to the cunning and devious Chap working at her local butchers.

    How does this correspond here, well our Dear Old Chap, is trying to use a strategy employed,
    by Loan Sharks across the inner-cities of America. No matter what action the individual who has borrowed from them takes as to avoid the exorbitant interest and fulfill the conditions, they will reject it, ” If you fulfill these condition no interest to pay” So the poor Old victims are made to run around on a wild goose chase, not realising they are being hustled, the loan shark is gonna use what is known as “the colonial six point”, to reject and ignore whatever conditions they fulfilled.

    So Our Dear Old Chap, is playing the Detroit Loan Shark, by using the colonial six point except his chosen run brother to try and hustle…! So if we ruffly tranlate what he is saying is that no, matter you say or what evidence you bring I am a Professional Hate filled Islamaphobe, and I am going to use the Colonial Six Point.

    On Top of that he claims my focus is on him, and he is absolutely correct, when an individual presents himself in a Court of Law as an “expert witness”, the court has an obligation to examine his qualifications, credentials and his agenda, and if he is proven to be a fraud and a prejudicial and a hostile witness his testimony is rejected and treated with contempt as it should be. The Credentials of our Dear Old Chap are there for all to see and they cannot be separated from his testimony,he is a Professional Islamaphobe. Try as he might that cannot be ignored, you cant write point one and point two then state rather subtly that you should ignore that I am an Islamaphobe and just answer question number (2)

    Whats more if a case goes to court the onus is on the Accuser to produce his evidence, and not the accused.You dont put someone in a court of Law and then say ” My Dear Old fellow My assertion is that you are a murderer but I want you to produce witnesses and evidences to prove that you are not, on top of that I will reject the witnesses you produce only witnesses you can produce are the ones that meet my approval. Besides that I will play Dodgeball and avoid every question you ask, and dismiss it as being irrelevant.

    So the onus is on Our Dear Colonel to produce some sound scholarship.

    What do the Mufassireen say on the Issue of the Day of Judgement? What do the Books of Tafseer say on the Day Judgement? How will a persons deeds be judged? What is a criteria for a good deed? is a good deed something that Rupert Murdoch calls a Good Deed? If an individual gives a Million to charity is that a good deed? What if the guy gave a million pounds to charity, because his Public relations, and marketing teams advised him it would be good for business, is that still a good deed? What is a Good person is it someone who the western media tell us is a good person? What if the Media changes its mind declares that individual to suddenly be a bad person? Like that Jimmy Saville Chap. Whats a bad deed? If one man kills his neighbour is that a bad deed? What if the had neighbour raped his daughter? If our Dear Old Chap was sincere then he would come here with answer to all these questions, but his agenda is “I hate Islam and Muslims”..”

    Note also the word play and how the insertions or assertions our dear old chap makes keep changing, Intially his insertion was that God compelled people to be disbelievers and he is going to send them to hell for it,….Then his objection was that all non-muslims will go to hell regardless of whether they had received the message or not, once that got refuted, now his absurdtion is that those who received the message in its unadulterated form and deliberately reject it and according to his Bible are in direct rebellion to God will go to Hell, and whats more according to his Bible God has full knowledge of his creation, and he knows full well what a Good person is, and what a Good deed is, and how to judge it…Thats why their is day of Judgement.

    The intelligent Question for our Dear Old Chap to consider is that were will his personal direction direction take him, will he be with the Ranks of Pharoah and his followers and those who follow their example or amongst the ranks of Moses (Peace and Blessings be upon him) and his followers…Whats your copy of Werner and Keller your favourite book of all time say ….Go and chew that.

  16. LibertyPhile says:

    You write (at great length, repeating yourself) that what I say about Islam is wrong because (you think) I am motivated by hatred and I’m ignorant. [This was also the nature of your response on Tom Holland at the beginning of this thread.]

    My motives and knowledge have nothing at all to do with the accuracy or otherwise of the statement that the Quran says and Islam teaches only believers can get to heaven. Those who have been given the message but don’t believe, no matter how good they are in life, will suffer in hell for eternity.

    I can understand many Muslims are uncomfortable with this – at least, now in modern times – and wriggle like mad, like you are wriggling, to avoid the ugly truth, like the “scholar” in the video link you gave who said in so many words, “Yes, atheists can get to heaven as long as they are not really atheists”. (You do know what’s wrong with that statement, don’t you?)

    Now you’ve come up with “What do the Mufassireen say on the Issue of the Day of Judgement? What do the Books of Tafseer say on the Day Judgement?”

    Yes indeed, what do they say? Why can’t you give a clear, rational, unambiguous quote?

    ==

    Please note the Bible is not my book. My admiration for Keller’s “The Bible as History” is to do with the effort made to establish if there was any truth, however distorted, behind various biblical stories.

  17. Ash says:

    My Dear Old Chap, only wriggling going on is with you, so how many questions have you dodged So far? 40? 50? with every question your lack of knowledge or rather more ignorance becomes more obvious.

    The only discomfort is yours, you been hammered by everyone from the Damsel in distress, to Dennis Weaver , Rolf Harris, Rumi, and Sun Tzu…! So why keep repeating the same nonsense when it has not given you much success, in the last three months.

    Your post is a classic example… “(at least 90% insults, embellishment, misconstruction, and gross repetition)”. Or as the Australians say an Emu burying its head in the sand, You just chose the wrong Brother to engage in Detroit Freestyle academics with.

    So now what Our Dear Old Colonel is saying is…”My motives and knowledge have nothing at all to do with the accuracy or otherwise of the statement..” So ignore the fact that he is ignorant, and we should also ignore the fact that he is an Islamaphobe, but despite his ignorance we should still accept his statements to be true….Has the Daily Mail have a vacancy for a new Editor?

    “If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you are a fool you will succumb in every battle.”
    – Sun Tzu

  18. LibertyPhile says:

    Interesting technique that! You don’t know what to say so you resort to complete gibberish.

  19. Ash says:

    I think your recent comment is what is referred to as a “Freudian slip”, and I fully agree with your subconcious mind, your arguments have indeed been gibberish.

    “The opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.”
    Sun Tzu

  20. LibertyPhile says:

    Talking of Freud, he would be interested in your case. You don’t argue, you just boast how smart you are and how stupid or wicked your opponent is.

    After all this time you still haven’t managed to say anything to contradict my statement the Quran says and Islam teaches only believers can get to heaven. Those who have been given the message but don’t believe, no matter how good they are go to hell.

    Islam is based on fear.

  21. Ash says:

    My Dear Old Old Chum, I think it goes without saying, that for someone to keep using the Colonial Six Point even after getting called on it cannot be termed as being very smart frankly just plain Laziness..!

    The Colonial Six Point:

    1) Make certain claims.
    2) When those claims are answered and refuted, Ignore the answers that have been given.
    3) Repeat the same claims, but make a bold claim that no one is capable of answering you.
    4) When those claims are answered and refuted, again Ignore the answers that have been given.
    5) Repeat the same claims, this time claim that you are being treated unfairly and being victimised, and ridiculed.
    6) When pointed towards answers that have already been given, again completely ignore them, Rinse and Repeat.

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